1- You notice things that you did not notice before
2- You realize that some of these things that you just noticed are contradicted in later episodes
3- Now you need to know why these things happened, were said, or were done

Cases in point:
1- How did Harper get any message from Ben? He has been a prisoner of the Losties since right before Jack called the freighter. How was he able to get a message to Harper?

2- Why does Ben lie to John about Widmore? Now, I know I know, Ben lies, However, he knows that his time as a leader is over. He also knows that John is the next leader of the island. If everything that Ben has done is for the island, why would he not be honest about the man that is the biggest threat to the island?

3- How could Widmore possibly know that Ben would gas the island? He is in merry old England buying ships logs. Even if the guy that he and his cohorts were beating up on the Red Sox video told Widmore about the Purge, I have more than a little bit of trouble with the idea that all the Others knew that Ben would gas the island. That is not info that Widmore got out of the beaten up Other.

Any insights would be appreciated.

You dread an episode even more and you still dislike it majorly.

I believe Harper is somehow associated with the whispers. She blew in on a breeze.... then blew out. Does this mean she is dead? I have no idea. But I think the Others have some pretty crazy powers. Who is to say that Harper did not pop in to visit Ben. Or possibly the communicate via telepathy.

Not only is Ben a liar, he also manipulates. There is some deeper darker reason for Ben to make Locke dislike Widmore.

I think Widmore was on the island when something similar happened in the past. But I doubt Widmore turned the FDW as others have suggested.

You dread an episode even more and you still dislike it majorly.

LOL, ain't that the truth

I believe Harper is somehow associated with the whispers. She blew in on a breeze.... then blew out. Does this mean she is dead? I have no idea. But I think the Others have some pretty crazy powers. Who is to say that Harper did not pop in to visit Ben. Or possibly the communicate via telepathy.

Not only is Ben a liar, he also manipulates. There is some deeper darker reason for Ben to make Locke dislike Widmore.

I think Widmore was on the island when something similar happened in the past. But I doubt Widmore turned the FDW as others have suggested.

I like the idea of Harper being connected to the whispers. Of course that leads to more questions about the nature of the whispers. Have you ever watched 'Willy Wonka'? There was a character that loved to watch to TV. At the Wonka factory there was a machine that could take a person and shoot some devil ray at them and make them appear as though they were on tv. The little boy wanted to try it and as his "body" was making it's way to the "tv", you could hear him, but his body was departiclized or something. Wonder if it is something like that.

I just rewatched 'The Shape of Things to Come' and the convo between Widmore and Ben do certainly suggest something very dark.

I have tried and tried to figure out the whispers and Smokey. The only theory I have read that I like is that Smokey is a bunch of spirits that manifest into the monster and the whispers are the spirits. But even that is rather out there. God I cannot wait to find out what it is all about.

1.There is a thing Ben does, we've seen him do it before, when he was captive in the swan, it looks a little like meditation, I believe that this practice is used to contact his people, now I have no idea how it works or even if it's true, but it's my best guess.
2. Your guess is as good as mine, as good as anyone's for that matter, I don"t have one at the moment sorry.
3.Widmore may not have known Ben was going to do it but he probably knows that the Other's did it before, and that it is a measure of last resort for the others when there is no way for them to handle quickly the threat they gas 'em and be done with it.

I'd like to throw out a possibility here that there is a third party involved, perhaps even someone pitting Ben and Widmore against each other, while leaving themselves out of the conflict completely by appearing to be loyal to both parties. The fake plane crash, I will use as an example, Ben says Widmore did it, Widmore says Ben did it, what if this third party did it so that both Ben and Widmore would launch attacks against each other effectively wiping each other out leaving the Iand for this third group to take. I'm not totally sold on this idea but it came to me while rewatching the third season, there has always been something that tugs at me, that tells me "hey your missing something"

1.There is a thing Ben does, we've seen him do it before, when he was captive in the swan, it looks a little like meditation, I believe that this practice is used to contact his people, now I have no idea how it works or even if it's true, but it's my best guess.
2. Your guess is as good as mine, as good as anyone's for that matter, I don"t have one at the moment sorry.
3.Widmore may not have known Ben was going to do it but he probably knows that the Other's did it before, and that it is a measure of last resort for the others when there is no way for them to handle quickly the threat they gas 'em and be done with it.

I'd like to throw out a possibility here that there is a third party involved, perhaps even someone pitting Ben and Widmore against each other, while leaving themselves out of the conflict completely by appearing to be loyal to both parties. The fake plane crash, I will use as an example, Ben says Widmore did it, Widmore says Ben did it, what if this third party did it so that both Ben and Widmore would launch attacks against each other effectively wiping each other out leaving the Iand for this third group to take. I'm not totally sold on this idea but it came to me while rewatching the third season, there has always been something that tugs at me, that tells me "hey your missing something"

Paik? The only other character that we know of with the money and resources to do something like that. Also, he has a daughter that is an only child. Same as Ben and Widmore.

Paik? The only other character that we know of with the money and resources to do something like that. Also, he has a daughter that is an only child. Same as Ben and Widmore.
That's who I'm leaning towards, but I'd also like to throw out a radical idea that perhaps Alpert and Abaddon are working together to eliminate both Ben and Widmore, force those two to take each other out and you can live peacefully on the Island without fear of "bad" people trying to find it.

I know what you mean about possible contradictions. The whole Ben/Juliet history doesn't make too much sense. I have been re-watching S3 again and in A Tale of Two Cities, Ben is prepared to let Juliet drown, whilst in Juliet's flashback in S4 (The Other Woman), it seems Ben is practically in love with Juliet... okay his actions may be based on jealousy, but it doesn't quite add up to me.
Also... In one S3 episode, one of the characters (Tom, i think) says about Ben and Juliet 'having a history', which isn't really true.

There are a few other small things I've noticed when re-watching the previous seasons, I can't think of any now. Nothing major though, still LOVE the show.

Molly1977... You know, it is rather strange that most of the survivors are only children.

I know what you mean about possible contradictions. The whole Ben/Juliet history doesn't make too much sense. I have been re-watching S3 again and in A Tale of Two Cities, Ben is prepared to let Juliet drown, whilst in Juliet's flashback in S4 (The Other Woman), it seems Ben is practically in love with Juliet... okay his actions may be based on jealousy, but it doesn't quite add up to me.
Also... In one S3 episode, one of the characters (Tom, i think) says about Ben and Juliet 'having a history', which isn't really true.


We saw Ben try the same with Keamy, when he was holding Alex hostage, and I never got a doubt Ben did love his adopted child. Tom was Ben's right hand, he could know what Ben felt about Juliet, as Harper did (as referred in The Other Woman) and as Amelia did (in a mobisode).

Bye!
EvaK

As I am re-watching season 3 now, I am wondering if Ben leaving Juliet "to die" wasn't really Ben leaving her to die. Ben knew there was a button there that drained all the water from the room. I wonder if Ben was just trying to make Jack think there was a rift between he and Juliet so Jack would start to trust her. Then, Juliet could convince Jack to do the surgery. And Juliet would do that because Ben promised he would finally let her off the island if she helped him.

Who knows, though? Just an idea.

I demand an apology for myself and the rest of the Kate fans.

This episode basically crapped on her and her fans.

After she was knocked out, it took 10 MINUTES and a commercial break for her to be revived.

I nearly had a heart attack!

1- You notice things that you did not notice before
2- You realize that some of these things that you just noticed are contradicted in later episodes
3- Now you need to know why these things happened, were said, or were done

Cases in point:

2- Why does Ben lie to John about Widmore? Now, I know I know, Ben lies, However, he knows that his time as a leader is over. He also knows that John is the next leader of the island. If everything that Ben has done is for the island, why would he not be honest about the man that is the biggest threat to the island?



Ben's stock and trade is information. He use's it to buy his way out of or in to better situations. He could have held back revealing the whole truth because a Ben with information only he knows is useful, a Ben sharing information only he knows becomes expendable. I think he had to make sure he was in a situation where he wasn't under anyone's influence.

He's locked in the basement of his own house, he dole's out a piece of info that gets him out of that, but he's still under the watchful eye of Locke. It takes Keamy and Team coming, killing everyone, spreading chaos, for him to fully be back in charge of himself and his actions.

I think what he knows he uses like get out of jail free cards. Giving just enough to improve his situation while keeping enough back to further it when necessary or bail out again.

Ben's stock and trade is information. He use's it to buy his way out of or in to better situations. He could have held back revealing the whole truth because a Ben with information only he knows is useful, a Ben sharing information only he knows becomes expendable. I think he had to make sure he was in a situation where he wasn't under anyone's influence.

He's locked in the basement of his own house, he dole's out a piece of info that gets him out of that, but he's still under the watchful eye of Locke. It takes Keamy and Team coming, killing everyone, spreading chaos, for him to fully be back in charge of himself and his actions.

I think what he knows he uses like get out of jail free cards. Giving just enough to improve his situation while keeping enough back to further it when necessary or bail out again.


Well put, Sign of a good leader?
(I'll probably take a hit for that:biggrin:)

I watched the whole of LOST again, and have just finished watching seasons 3 and 4 back to back end to end start to finish.

I have to say, the addition of the new characters (new as of season 2 onwards) has, by and large, hurt LOST a lot.

Also the breach of faith with the audience in terms of mysteries, what the show is about and how problems are resolved for the castaways is a massive disappointment. I am in the category now of basically skipping LOST altogether- I dropped the show after season 2- and returning to watch it all at once and long after the dust settles.

Ben is a ridiculous comicbook character, more so than the original castaways, and his equally ridiculous free pass to lie and deceive by people who capture him is titanically stupid. Stupid on an epic scale. As is the continuous inability of characters to simply exchange information.

I assumed Harper was dead and a projection of the smoke monster, or some similar entity, and it would be insane for her to be anything else since there was no way Ben could communicate anything without yet another Spock the Vulcan / Superman style power popping out of his butt- this time the maze of tunnels only he knows about, his super-telepathy, or something else silly.

He was just a nerdy isolated kid who grew up to be a psychopathic killer. Nothing more. His intrusive presence in the ensemble has deformed the show. I think that deformation indicates that the show was never more than the vaguest of plans or outlines in the first place, as we discussed some 2 years ago now...

I have to say, the addition of the new characters (new as of season 2 onwards) has, by and large, hurt LOST a lot.


Ben is a ridiculous comicbook character, more so than the original castaways, and his equally ridiculous free pass to lie and deceive by people who capture him is titanically stupid. Stupid on an epic scale. As is the continuous inability of characters to simply exchange information.



. His intrusive presence in the ensemble has deformed the show. I think that deformation indicates that the show was never more than the vaguest of plans or outlines in the first place, as we discussed some 2 years ago now...

You're not the only one who feels this way and over the seasons more and more people have been coming around. Unfortunately, there are many more who simply love that character.Ben was truly the beginning of the end for the show. And he wasn't even supposed to be on the show past for more than 6 episodes!

1- How did Harper get any message from Ben?

Good question. Juliet made a point of asking it too and Harper said that Ben was right where he wanted to be. I have no clue how he could have gotten word out. Maybe all of the buildings in New Otherton have secret passageways like his old house.


2- Why does Ben lie to John about Widmore?

What did he lie about?


3- How could Widmore possibly know that Ben would gas the island?

Widmore knew about this and later on he knows that Ben will retreat to the Orchid. I think WIdmore knows this because he knows the DHARMA protocol. He even gave copies of it to the freighter folks. So, since he knows that the gas and Orchid exist then I guess he just figured that Ben would try to use them if he was attacked.

Regarding the "most survivors are only children" thing, that doesn't have to MEAN anything... Don't forget that Damon and Carlton aren't totally different from other Hollywood writers, and this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlyChildSyndrome) is actually a common thing in fiction.

You're not the only one who feels this way and over the seasons more and more people have been coming around. Unfortunately, there are many more who simply love that character.Ben was truly the beginning of the end for the show. And he wasn't even supposed to be on the show past for more than 6 episodes!


I think the makers know their target audience well. Ben is an alter ego for a big slab of their audience IMO, a bigger slab than perhaps that audience would admit...

It just seems to me, that this show has tampered with areas mortal minds are not meant to, a little bit. Ben's intrusive presence in one sense is nothing more than TV producer hubris and X-Files style fanpandering... But I wonder. Perhaps Shambhala, Agartha, all these hidden lands, are hidden in real life for a reason...

The use of the Laurel Canyon (http://alienbodies.wikidot.com/laurel-canyon) motif in the show is creeping me out, although I know most people wouldn't acknowledge the dark side to the Laurel Canyon set let alone acknowledge its presence in the show... But the whole hidden bases, murderous hippies, purge and even Ben resonate as much with Charles Milles Manson as any silly ninja stereotype. Especially with Manson's close connections to:

The Beach Boys
The Mamas and Papas (was a neighbour of Cass Elliott at one point)
The original freaks/hippies
The division in hippie culture between those working on projects to better mankind (albeit infiltrated by the CIA) and the murderous cultist types (most ex-Scientology) like Manson- Ben and the DI anyone?

As for LOST originally being purgatory- I guess more accurately it was originally intended to be the Bardo. It probably still is, which is why the producers feel free to say, playing word games, that it is not Purgatory- it isn't, it's the Eastern idea of Purgatory, in fact specifically the demon-plagued land of Tibet's idea of Purgatory- the Bardo.

Brigitte Bardo was totally smoking hot in the 60's! Oh wait...

The problem I have rewatching an episode is noticing all that I missed the first time I saw it. My eagle eye and my pride always take a facefull episode, after episode after episode...

And If I say I like Ben Linus, then you can call me a liar. :biggrin: But personally, I don't think he ruined the show. Someone on the Island had to be behind the kidnappings, and I'd rather it be Ben than Tom or Pickett.

Eric

...The problem I have rewatching an episode is noticing all that I missed the first time I saw it. My eagle eye and my pride always take a facefull episode, after episode after episode...

Eric
I totally agree with you, Eric. I received Season 4 for Christmas and sat down yesterday to watch a few episodes. Having watched them on TV when they originally aired and then read about all the clues, etc. that I missed here on the Fuselage, I feel like an idiot when I re-watched those episodes yesterday.

I miss the old faithful more obvious 'easter eggs.' Really liked season 4...and have been enjoying re-watching it...along with the other 3 seasons sporadically... but my husband and I both agree... the easter eggs in Season 2 were especially choice. Good stuff.

I don't think Ben ruined the show at all; I don't always love his character... but somehow it fits. Juliet is still baffling to me. Sometimes she drives us crazy! She's grown on me... I suppose she fits... I really like the new 3 characters a lot ... Miles especially. Daniel and Charlotte are intriguing... but I need answers about the originals!! Seriously.

I don't think the introduction of Ben was the downfall of lost. At some point, the group that took Walt off the raft was going to be rounded out. Watching the end of season one, with them driving off, the raft exploding, Michael yelling WAAAAAAAALLLLTTT! you knew there was a confrontation coming at some point between the two groups.

I believe Darlton is on record as saying that Micheal Emerson basically blew them away, and they wrote his character deeper into the story. I agree, Tom or Pickett (though he popped up in season three) as the over all leader wouldn't be half as convincing.

I think season one has to be looked at seperately then the others, to date. At the time who knew we were watching a serialized show that already the notions of an end in mind? That changes things.

Season two could have been a lot like season one if the show was serialized like a soap opera. Those shows have no end date in sight, the conflicts, love interests, highs and lows are cyclic. For a few weeks or months, it's these people that are fighting, these two are hooking up, this one is dying, this one is that. Then soap operas just shift those story points from one group or persons to the next.

Nothing gets accomplished over the long story arc, because there isn't a long story arc.

The first season of lost is stand alone. It laid the ground work. The possibilites were numerous as to where it could have went. There was a lot of complaints about season two, and Ben and the others and it feels like to me, people had a hard time adjusting to fixed plot points. You really got the idea that the show was moving on a track in season two, that they had something in mind. At least I did.

I can still watch season one and almost suspend what I know is coming. I can watch it and still think about the different places it could have gone, because it was so open to interpretation. It's seperate from the other ones because it hasn't started moving yet on the track. You're sitting in the cart, waiting for the ride of your life, knowing it could be big.

I've probably watched more season two episodes than any other, in part because season three dragged out so long, over so many weeks, and because I think the show really took shape there. Those five or six episodes Ben is in the hatch, locked up, are great. It really opens the rift between Jack and Locke.

Some of the character introductions are head scratchers or don't seem to fit. Harper comes to mind, just to sort of keep this post on topic. I think the writers/creators have won the majority of the character introduction battles, though. And with the size of the cast, that's quite a feat.

You're not the only one who feels this way and over the seasons more and more people have been coming around. Unfortunately, there are many more who simply love that character.Ben was truly the beginning of the end for the show. And he wasn't even supposed to be on the show past for more than 6 episodes!

You may think that about Ben, but a lot of people, my self included think he is one of the better charecters on the show. The fact that he manipulates everything and everyone is sometimes awe inspiring.

I agree with havoc. I will watch an episode that features Ben over and over again and never get bored. Emerson is amazing and Ben is such a complex character.

I agree, I love Ben! But I also love Juliet. This episode was interesting, it made me dislike Ben in flashbacks but looove him in the present. The last scene was hilarious!

I think Ben's character is always going to be chilling, creepy or disturbing to many viewers, inasmuch he's still perceived as the 'villian', despite Mr. Widmore etc being introduced. He's been established as a remarkably intelligent, shrewd and ruthless man, who can do whatever it takes to get the job done, including risking himself if need be. He's always self possessed, and he always has a plan (as he informs Locke!)

Occasionally, however, you get to see the cracks in him; the human frailties, vulnerabilities when it comes to relationships. He had a lonely, wretched childhood, with a dead mum and a drunk, bitter dad; once an adult, he had issues with his 'daughter' and to date, we haven't seen any evidence of any geniune romantic entanglements. For me, when I do get a glimpse of his insecurity, it enhances the character tenfold. However cruel or manipulative he might be, he's just a man, and like us all, he needs love, encouragment and all the good stuff.

This episode brought that out forcefully to me, which is why I liked it. The hopeful look on Ben's face when he's showing Juliet her new house; his eagerness to be around her; his complete, vicious jealousy when he discovers she's having an affair with Goodwin and the steps he takes to quash that; all these instances depict a man who hasn't fully mastered himself, no matter that he might think he has done.

And where a lesser actor might have portrayed Ben with an exaggerated tone, and made him a 'villian' caricature, I think ME's brilliance has ensured that Ben stays scary, powerful and always, always totally relevant.

I
I don't think Ben ruined the show at all; I don't always love his character... but somehow it fits. Juliet is still baffling to me. Sometimes she drives us crazy! She's grown on me... I suppose she fits... I really like the new 3 characters a lot ... Miles especially. Daniel and Charlotte are intriguing... but I need answers about the originals!! Seriously.

I very much agree with you on all this. :kiss:

I think the makers know their target audience well. Ben is an alter ego for a big slab of their audience IMO, a bigger slab than perhaps that audience would admit...

It just seems to me, that this show has tampered with areas mortal minds are not meant to, a little bit. Ben's intrusive presence in one sense is nothing more than TV producer hubris and X-Files style fanpandering... But I wonder. Perhaps Shambhala, Agartha, all these hidden lands, are hidden in real life for a reason...

The use of the Laurel Canyon (http://alienbodies.wikidot.com/laurel-canyon) motif in the show is creeping me out, although I know most people wouldn't acknowledge the dark side to the Laurel Canyon set let alone acknowledge its presence in the show... But the whole hidden bases, murderous hippies, purge and even Ben resonate as much with Charles Milles Manson as any silly ninja stereotype. Especially with Manson's close connections to:

As for LOST originally being purgatory- I guess more accurately it was originally intended to be the Bardo. It probably still is, which is why the producers feel free to say, playing word games, that it is not Purgatory- it isn't, it's the Eastern idea of Purgatory, in fact specifically the demon-plagued land of Tibet's idea of Purgatory- the Bardo.

:eek2:

having said that, I'm in cahooties with you re ben. a hammier hamster there never hammed.