OK,

I've been re-watching season 3 and now have a serious issue with the show. Desmond *promises* Charlie that he saw Claire, in a flash, "get into a helicopter WITH HER BABY" and that the helicopter lifts off the island. Now, seeing season 4, we all know that Claire is not anywhere near the helicopter when it lifts off. And if, perchance, Claire and Aaron are to leave the island again in the future on a helicopter, Aaron would clearly no longer be a baby. Now, I really don't think Desmond would've made up this complete lie just to have Charlie offed, so what's going on? Major screw up?

that and the fact that when sun and aaron approached the freighter, des was the one helping them onto it. he had NO reaction to the fact that claire was not there. if he had envisioned claire and aaron on the helicopter and claire was not there, wouldn't he have asked someone where she was, looked surprised that she was not there, or even freaked out that he screwed up so badly? one or all of the above would have given us an answer other than the fact that he didn't really have the vision or that it was blurry......as claire's psychic said, blurry is bad!:mad:

i'm totally unhappy with it as well. and it was such a huge storyline that it would be difficult to think that it was a writer's screw up!

..there is still time for another helicopter

Yes, but Aaron would not be a baby anymore. And Des specifically said "Claire and her baby...."

Desmond lied, he saw himself and Penny reunited and that was enough to allow Charlie to die, however while rowing out to the LG he had himself a change of heart, thus changing his vision, to allow for Claire not being on the heli. Or maybe it didn't change at all, we never saw this vision so we have no way to know for sure, but we can be sure it was not a writers screw up. Desmonds only concern was getting to Penny he was willing to sacrifice Charlie to let it happen, remember the parachutist, however he had himself a change of heart there, not that I'm actually sold on his belief that if he intervenes with the way a vision plays out it will change it, Naomi was the parachutist from the begining, imo.

What about, Claire and a baby? As long as Claire's in the land of the living, that might come to pass.

Of course, Desmond would have to be alive to see it - but then... 'dead' Charlie gave Hugo a slap across the chops that suggested his corporeal nature even after he died so :shrug:

Between visions, dreams, temporally displaced consciousnesses and questionable sanity?

I give up. :biggrin:

:deadhorse:

I do hope they address this so it can be over once and for all.

Des lied? I don't know if I believe that. Charlie asked him spot on, and Des told him. I don't think Des would have totally lied and burned Charlie at the stake. Plus, that was never hinted at

A lot of folks think Des must have lied because we never saw Claire get on the helicopter. I don't follow that train of thought though.

Desmond lied, he saw himself and Penny reunited and that was enough to allow Charlie to die, however while rowing out to the LG he had himself a change of heart, thus changing his vision, to allow for Claire not being on the heli. Or maybe it didn't change at all, we never saw this vision so we have no way to know for sure, but we can be sure it was not a writers screw up. Desmonds only concern was getting to Penny he was willing to sacrifice Charlie to let it happen, remember the parachutist, however he had himself a change of heart there, not that I'm actually sold on his belief that if he intervenes with the way a vision plays out it will change it, Naomi was the parachutist from the begining, imo.

and des saw charlie "drown" which we know from the episode that charlie did not need to drown, at least in that room. he closed the door himself. desmond saw him doing it and tried to stop him. why charlie closed the door we don't know. maybe since he had already planned on dying and being a hero or maybe he was afraid to change the course of things. all i know is that i hope our questions will be answered!
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A lot of folks think Des must have lied because we never saw Claire get on the helicopter. I don't follow that train of thought though.

i don't follow the reasoning either, but if des saw claire get on the helicopter with the baby and he believes it to be true, why was he not surprised when claire was not with aaron coming to the freighter? why did he not ask about her?

Claire is still on the island and will have Charlie's baby, then get on a helicopter.

and des saw charlie "drown" which we know from the episode that charlie did not need to drown, at least in that room. he closed the door himself. desmond saw him doing it and tried to stop him. why charlie closed the door we don't know. maybe since he had already planned on dying and being a hero or maybe he was afraid to change the course of things. all i know is that i hope our questions will be answered!
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i don't follow the reasoning either, but if des saw claire get on the helicopter with the baby and he believes it to be true, why was he not surprised when claire was not with aaron coming to the freighter? why did he not ask about her?

Maybe enough time and trauma had happened by that point that he simply wasn't thinking about Claire. I really don't know. I'm not really dwelling on that point though. I do hope the writers know what a problem it's been on the boards and address it.

I think Des realized that he was going to have to keep saving Charlie over and over and over & that apparently was not what was "supposed to happen." He probably figured the universe was course-correcting itself and by constantly interfering (saving Charlie), he was not allowing a certain plan to move forward.

I don't think he planned to sacrifice Charlie to see Penny. I think he just realized that if that timeline was to ever play out, he HAD to let Charlie die & the only way he could think to have Charlie put himself in that situation is to convince Charlie that by his dying, Claire & Aaron would be saved.

I don't think he planned to sacrifice Charlie to see Penny. I think he just realized that if that timeline was to ever play out, he HAD to let Charlie die & the only way he could think to have Charlie put himself in that situation is to convince Charlie that by his dying, Claire & Aaron would be saved.
Ok that was more what I meant.

Claire is still on the island and will have Charlie's baby, then get on a helicopter.

that sounds delightful:biggrin: but i would assume that if she had his baby that by now the baby wouldn't be a baby anymore. rather 2 1/2 years old. we could always just say that des misinterpreted the age and go with that!!

I think Des realized that he was going to have to keep saving Charlie over and over and over & that apparently was not what was "supposed to happen." He probably figured the universe was course-correcting itself and by constantly interfering (saving Charlie), he was not allowing a certain plan to move forward.

I don't think he planned to sacrifice Charlie to see Penny. I think he just realized that if that timeline was to ever play out, he HAD to let Charlie die & the only way he could think to have Charlie put himself in that situation is to convince Charlie that by his dying, Claire & Aaron would be saved.

Maybe, but I would need this to be at least hinted at for me to believe it

maybe TPTB are just making it pu as they go an havent put all the thought into it that we have- there are so many mishaps within the context of the show....
the horse is dead and really starting to swell from all the beating.

Desmond does not write the show. The writers write the show. The writers didn't say or promise that Claire and her baby were going to leave the island on a helicopter. If they did, and it didn't happen, that's one thing. But when Desmond tells Charlie that he saw Claire and her baby leaving the island on a helicopter, and it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean that the show, or the writers, made a mistake.

Des, our tragic hero, lied. His only true desire is to be reunited with Penny. When he used the failsafe key, he had one opportunity to make it right. He lost that, and upon his naked return to the island, he promised he wouldn't make that mistake again. But he did... he saved Charlie, and he saved Charlie, and he saved Charlie and he saved Charlie.

Meanwhile, his visions tantalize him - promise him that he will reunite with Penny. Perhaps each one ends happier than the last.

Anyhoo - finally he cannot stand it anymore. He has to chose. Save Charlie and lose Penny. Let Charlie die and get Penny. There's a moral struggle for you.

And we don't know how far forward he saw. Maybe his last iteration showed him needing to save Penny's life. (Ben, afterall, is after her.) If that were the case -- who does he chose?

Even if that weren't the case, Desmond BELIEVES that by saving Charlie, he risks skewing his vision of the future. He finally chose Penny over Charlie.

He lied to give Charlie what he needed to allow fate to take its course. He gave Charlie a noble cause worth dying for.

Desmond does not write the show. The writers write the show. The writers didn't say or promise that Claire and her baby were going to leave the island on a helicopter. If they did, and it didn't happen, that's one thing. But when Desmond tells Charlie that he saw Claire and her baby leaving the island on a helicopter, and it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean that the show, or the writers, made a mistake.

so many actors have said that when they get a script and its inconsistent with their storyline, they approach the writers or whoever to talk it over. i really believe that ian is a passionate enough actor that if des sees sun and aaron approach the freighter without claire that there would be a reaction to it IF he thought that claire was suppose to be alive and boarding a helicopter. if he sees the scene with no shocking surprise coming from desmond, then i would imagine he would already know that desmond's premonitions are not clear or clear enough that he knew he was lying to charlie.

i love desmond. i do not want him to be lying to charlie, but i'm starting to understand kitten's theory that des wanted to be with penny so much that he made a choice.

michael made a choice in season 2. he made it for the love of his son. IF desmond made a choice, he made it for the love of his penny.

but, i've said it before and i'll say it again, charlie did not have to die. he shut the door before the grenade went off. he could have gone out of the room, shut the door and taken one of the air tanks with des and left the looking glass. charlie made a choice!

i'm totally unhappy with it as well. and it was such a huge storyline that it would be difficult to think that it was a writer's screw up!

I agree. It really bugs me when things are said that are not followed up upon. I don't mind a little foreshadowing now and again but Desmond's "vision" of Claire and Aaron entering the helo seems a bit out of place.

Unless... he meant that Claire and her "baby" (a little older perhaps) are entering the helo at a later date such as in season 6. After all, how many of us are still our mommy's baby. My mom still calls me her "baby" and I'll be 50 in February.

P. S. In this case, a blurry vision may be a good thing.

the horse is dead and really starting to swell from all the beating.



l o l !!!! :biggrin:
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but, i've said it before and i'll say it again, charlie did not have to die. he shut the door before the grenade went off. he could have gone out of the room, shut the door and taken one of the air tanks with des and left the looking glass. charlie made a choice!



Charlie made a choice based on what Desmond told him. I think if Desmond hadnt said Claire & Aaron would be rescued after he died, Charlie would have been on the life side of that door.

Charlie made a choice based on what Desmond told him. I think if Desmond hadnt said Claire & Aaron would be rescued after he died, Charlie would have been on the life side of that door.

You make a very valid point. Desmond told Charlie that if you change one thing, then it changes the outcome. He stressed that by saving Charlie the last time, the outcome (supposedly Penny arriving) had been changed.

He probably saw that Charlie would knock him out. I say this because in order for him to know Charlie drowned, he would have had to been present - within viewing distance of Charlie to see that he drowned in the vision. His visions thus far had him present to witness the deaths of Charlie.

I find it all very sad for Desmond, because he has a choice of sticking to Charlie like glue to save his life and not reunite with Penny for the rest of his life, or reunite with Penny. He obviously has felt compelled to save Charlie on numerous occasions, which makes me wonder if he possibly foresaw that he would save Penny's life (something that has not been even alluded to in the story - I've wandered to the land of absolute speculation here :biggrin:) and then he had to make a choice - a diabolical choice indeed.

a diabolical choice indeed.

I hate to admit it, but I think your right.
Givin a choice between Chalies life, staying on craphole Island and reuniting W/Penny, That would be a decision I would hate to have to make.

l o l !!!! :biggrin:
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Charlie made a choice based on what Desmond told him. I think if Desmond hadnt said Claire & Aaron would be rescued after he died, Charlie would have been on the life side of that door.

bravo:sHa_clap4:! you are totally right. and i cannot agree that this is being beaten like a dead horse because charlie was so well liked. i love boone, and was sad that he died, but they didn't throw something into the mix where boone could have been saved. jack did everything he could to save him and it was impossible to save him. but we watched where charlie could have walked through that door and been safe. maybe he would have died on the island sometime since it is believed that he is suppose to die, but whatever!

it is as big of a storyline as aaron not being raised by another, or where jack should have never left the island. some storylines are just window dressings, but i don't believe des foreseeing charlie's death as being one of them!
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I find it all very sad for Desmond, because he has a choice of sticking to Charlie like glue to save his life and not reunite with Penny for the rest of his life, or reunite with Penny. He obviously has felt compelled to save Charlie on numerous occasions, which makes me wonder if he possibly foresaw that he would save Penny's life (something that has not been even alluded to in the story - I've wandered to the land of absolute speculation here :biggrin:) and then he had to make a choice - a diabolical choice indeed.

but when charlie and des were in the looking glass and des was getting the diving gear together, i think that he felt they were out of the woods. when he saw charlie with they eye-patch dude behind him in the window, he began to run toward the room because he saw that charlie was closing the door. he tried to stop charlie, but he couldn't. it was all very sad. i do not blame desmond.

besides, who would ever want to have premonitions watching someone you hang with die? i don't relish what desmond was going through. i would just like to understand if the obliviousness of his reaction to claire not being on the freighter or in the helicopter with the o6 was a writer's mistake or storyline related.

for crying out loud, desmond was in the helicopter with aaron and no claire. there should have been a reaction!

OK, i've beaten the horse and he's really dead now;).

I really think Desmond had no reaction to Claire not being on the Heli, because he saw Aaron and saw what he saw in his vision, he saw Aaron being held by someone maybe his vision wasn't clear and he realized that he didn't see Claire and Aaron he saw Kate and Aaron in his vision, or maybe he didn't see Aaron and whoever at all maybe what he saw was his reunion with Penny and figured that was enough to send Charlie to his demise, I hope this isn't the case but it looks like it is.

It could be that he just saw a woman holding a baby. From that he assumed it was Claire and Aaron because it wouldn't make sense for him to think it was anyone else. As far as him not reacting to Claire's absence, I think that can be chalked up to shock and the fact that they were escaping a boat that was about to explode. Later, he would be too devastated to really care that it's someone else with the baby. The Helicopter crashed and they were hanging out in a life raft awaiting almost certain death. Later still, he's reunited with the love of his life. After all that it would be pretty immaterial to him who had the baby.

Later still, he's reunited with the love of his life. After all that it would be pretty immaterial to him who had the baby.

and what a reunion that was!

my opinion, that was the spectacular kiss D&C were talking about;)!

Claire is still on the island and will have Charlie's baby, then get on a helicopter.

I like it...I like it alot!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although I have to wonder, could the woman holding the baby possibly be Penny, getting on a helicopter holding Des' baby...on their way back to the island???

They all have to go back right?

Since the "Why did Charlie close the door when he didn't have to?" question continues to rear its head, I feel inclined to offer that the IMMEDIATE cause of Charlie's closing the door from the inside, without getting out himself, was to save Desmond's life. Desmond saw Penny on the monitor as he was running toward Charlie and Charlie closed the door, I think it's reasonable to say, because had he tried to run out and tried to close it from the outside, there was nothing to prevent Desmond from rushing right back in and risking his life senselessly to get one "last" conversation with Penny. Charlie was looking out for Desmond, and for all this entire arc of Desmond saving Charlie's life over and over, it's fitting that the final act be that of the reverse. Charlie sacrificed his life and saved Desmond.

I have no doubt that Charlie ALSO recognized that he would be fulfilling Desmond's vision, thinking it would lead to Claire and Aaron's rescue. But when you consider the immediate effect of saving Desmond, you don't have to wrestle with the question of whether he believed in the vision *that much* to close himself in when he could clearly get out. In the end, both motives are fulfilled in the single act.

Also, I'm pretty sure that it was confirmed in a podcast last season that that Desmond's vision was not forgotten and will still play a role, yes? I agree that I would like to see resolution to this particular point, but I trust that it can/will still happen.

Since the "Why did Charlie close the door when he didn't have to?" question continues to rear its head, I feel inclined to offer that the IMMEDIATE cause of Charlie's closing the door from the inside, without getting out himself, was to save Desmond's life. Desmond saw Penny on the monitor as he was running toward Charlie and Charlie closed the door, I think it's reasonable to say, because had he tried to run out and tried to close it from the outside, there was nothing to prevent Desmond from rushing right back in and risking his life senselessly to get one "last" conversation with Penny. Charlie was looking out for Desmond, and for all this entire arc of Desmond saving Charlie's life over and over, it's fitting that the final act be that of the reverse. Charlie sacrificed his life and saved Desmond.
The first part is excellent, your a pro:biggrin: I've never thought about it that way. I still say Desmond was lying or confused about what he saw.

Since the "Why did Charlie close the door when he didn't have to?" question continues to rear its head, I feel inclined to offer that the IMMEDIATE cause of Charlie's closing the door from the inside, without getting out himself, was to save Desmond's life. Desmond saw Penny on the monitor as he was running toward Charlie and Charlie closed the door, I think it's reasonable to say, because had he tried to run out and tried to close it from the outside, there was nothing to prevent Desmond from rushing right back in and risking his life senselessly to get one "last" conversation with Penny. Charlie was looking out for Desmond, and for all this entire arc of Desmond saving Charlie's life over and over, it's fitting that the final act be that of the reverse. Charlie sacrificed his life and saved Desmond.



Also, I'm pretty sure that it was confirmed in a podcast last season that that Desmond's vision was not forgotten and will still play a role, yes? I agree that I would like to see resolution to this particular point, but I trust that it can/will still happen.

that sounds plausible. it's apparent that charlie had made his peace with following through with the whole plan, the vision. that's why he knocked des over the head to do he job. you could be right.

as far as claire is concerned, i have been a great advocate that claire is alive. but i just watched the episode where she disappears again. i find it curious that miles is staring at her so much. sawyer can't stand it so he tries to keep them apart. but with the fact that miles talks or feels dead people, it's a curious scene. but, i really think that if she was dead dead, miles would say something, right? also, he did see christian when she left their little camping area. he told sawyer that she left with a man and when sawyer asked him who, he replied, she called him dad. i guess i held onto the hope that she was alive because of her storyline, aaron must not be raised by another. well, what the heck? if she's dead then that whole thing goes to hell!:mad:

I'm with those who thinks that the vision haven't happened yet! Claire lives!

As for Charlie's "unecessary" death , I thought that he and Desmond had an understanding; if he didn't die, the vision wouldnt come true and/or would prolong the inevitable.. PLUS Wayne's excellent point about them looking out for each other! =)
Ergo.. the death of Charlie was NOT unnecessary at all! It was the one of the most heroic acts EVER (and a little poetic =)!


EDIT: Dessie also told Charlie HOW he was gonna die, as in drowning. So he prepared himself for that, and he took a leap of faith when he closed that door, cause he knew EXACTLY what to do to keep claire and the baby safe..
again.. VERY heroic

Desmond's visions can change based on the actions of people who are informed of such visions. I've always believed that every time Desmond told someone about one of his flashes, he essentially altered the outcome of a sequence of events. Therefore, if Claire had originally been one of those who had been rescued, the fact that Charlie's death convinced her to go with Locke altered that outcome.

Looking at time as linear is a very bad idea on LOST.

Well said, Wayne.

Since the "Why did Charlie close the door when he didn't have to?" question continues to rear its head, I feel inclined to offer that the IMMEDIATE cause of Charlie's closing the door from the inside, without getting out himself, was to save Desmond's life. Desmond saw Penny on the monitor as he was running toward Charlie and Charlie closed the door, I think it's reasonable to say, because had he tried to run out and tried to close it from the outside, there was nothing to prevent Desmond from rushing right back in and risking his life senselessly to get one "last" conversation with Penny. Charlie was looking out for Desmond, and for all this entire arc of Desmond saving Charlie's life over and over, it's fitting that the final act be that of the reverse. Charlie sacrificed his life and saved Desmond.

I have no doubt that Charlie ALSO recognized that he would be fulfilling Desmond's vision, thinking it would lead to Claire and Aaron's rescue. But when you consider the immediate effect of saving Desmond, you don't have to wrestle with the question of whether he believed in the vision *that much* to close himself in when he could clearly get out. In the end, both motives are fulfilled in the single act.


I agree 100%. This has been my thinking since I saw the episode. I also had a thought at the time of the episode that when Charlie hit Desmond on the head with the oar, it stopped his future flashes. Not sure if that is true or not but it reminded me of the time he was hit on the head in Flashes Before Your Eyes.

Desmond's visions can change based on the actions of people who are informed of such visions. I've always believed that every time Desmond told someone about one of his flashes, he essentially altered the outcome of a sequence of events. Therefore, if Claire had originally been one of those who had been rescued, the fact that Charlie's death convinced her to go with Locke altered that outcome.

Looking at time as linear is a very bad idea on LOST.


AGREED! Well said.

Desmond's visions can change based on the actions of people who are informed of such visions. I've always believed that every time Desmond told someone about one of his flashes, he essentially altered the outcome of a sequence of events. Therefore, if Claire had originally been one of those who had been rescued, the fact that Charlie's death convinced her to go with Locke altered that outcome.

Yeah, but she wasn't informed of Desmond's vision about her getting into the helicopter, so that shouldn't have any bearing on her choice. Charlie fulfilled his part of the vision so unless his vision was wrong, or the writers decided not to go in that direction even after setting up something like this--which is what I'm inclined to think--Claire should have been rescued.

As far as Charlie's fulfillment of Desmond's vision, was it a premonition of the event or the reason that it happened? I think it was the latter. Charlie unfortunately got caught up in believing a supposed seer and paid for it by unnecessarily sacrificing himself.

Looking at time as linear is a very bad idea on LOST.

And since time travel has been introduced, looking at it logically as well.

Desmond's forward flashes seem different and separate than his time travel. I wonder if his flashes was merely the island trying to prepare him for this event?

Desmond's forward flashes seem different and separate than his time travel. I wonder if his flashes was merely the island trying to prepare him for this event?

Or maybe the island (possibly jacob?) tried to get Desmond and Charlie into the whole Looking Glass path by planting true/false pictures in his head. The Island knew that a series of events had to happen for an unknown purpose that serves in favor for the island itself..

That could explain why he saw Claire and the baby in the helicopter; it was just a major hoax..

could be!

i just watched the scene again where the raft reaches the freighter and des is there. i stand corrected to where desmond did have a look of uncertainty on his face. a little bit. there were no smiles or anything.....the only thing was he asked sun with the baby if she was alright. i'm sure it was aaron's condition and that of a pregnant woman that he would ask.

i guess i would have thought he'd be smiling that the first group arrived safely to the raft. he just looked a little perplexed.....but still no pertinent reaction to "where the heck is claire". i'm at least happy that he didn't look happy.....maybe wondering where claire was. IDK.

l o l !!!! :biggrin:
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Charlie made a choice based on what Desmond told him. I think if Desmond hadnt said Claire & Aaron would be rescued after he died, Charlie would have been on the life side of that door.

I concur!

I think the writers wanted to show that 'realities' can be changed based on the decisions that people make. That the future is not set in stone. Desmond was able to save Charlie from dying, but in the end Charlie killed himself. But, also, the events that transpired after Desmond had a vision of Claire getting on the helicopter might have changed the future in a way that prevents Claire from getting on the helicopter.

I have from TPTB an official statement:

The helicopter from season 4 shouldn't be the ONLY helicopter considered when analyzing Desmond's comment about Claire also getting into a helicopter

TPTB also confirmed that Charlie's Greatest Hits letter was destroyed by the water when Desmond dove in, but that the:

Driveshaft ring will be seen again "sooner than you think"

Wow! Where did you get this info? Thanks!

I presumed Claire's helicopter was long forgotten though I'm not quite sure what they are implying.

And as for the ring I never thought it would be mentioned again :redface:

A video message from Darlton

Great! :)

I'm amazed. I thought Desmond's vision and the did-he-or-did-he-not lie to Charlie debate would rage on long after the show had finished. I'm happy that won't be the case. Now we just need EdR to return so it can be explained properly.

A video message from Darlton

Do you have the link by any chance?

Wow! Awesome thread! I've been wondering the exact same thing about Desmond's vision and the reference to Claire and Aaron being saved for some time.. hmm..

Senator Kent demanded answers...post the link brotha. Next question for TPTB...the fate of Kelvin...

what are we allowed to post links to on here? isn't links FORBIDDEN!??

LockeLvr - LOL. Who is that in your avatar? Caesar?

You're allowed to link, if it's a spoiler, outside of the Spoiler board you need to say that it contains spoilers so people are warned. Half my posts contain links to one thing or another.

I'll tell you if there's anything wrong with it.

Hey. Has anyone found the link for this?

Link??? Come on people, I'm going crazy here!

I think he knew Charlie was destined to die, and couldn't keep saving him, so I think he said it about Claire so Charlie could die in peace

I just can't accept that. I believe that Desmond would only have said it if he'd ACTUALLY seen it. He looked Charlie in the eye and promised.

Seriously, Lost writers, I love you guys, but if you don't sort this thing out I'm gonna go crazy(er). Please let me stop obsessing about this and explain!!!!

Post the sodding link Kent!

and I know my shadow theory is correct...

What's your shadow theory?

My theory was shot straight to h e double hockey sticks with the variable episode.

My theory was shot straight to h e double hockey sticks with the variable episode.

Lol, don't you hate it when that happens?

Kent do something

Is that an avatar of Sawyer with Caesar?