Did anyone else besides me have a problem with the fact that they killed them off? I thought it was a bit evil to do that. Especially since there are some unanswered questions about Danielle's science team.

Danielle had another job, doing a play I think, as did Karl. Alex was killed to show Bens emotional limits, he obviously cracked after Keamy killed her. While I agree that it was a bad move killing these characters, yes even Karl, it had to be done for professional reasons. I'v saw Tania, Alex, on Cold Case last night and she looks fantastic, it amazing how much better one can look when not covered in dirt:biggrin:

Danielle had another job, doing a play I think, as did Karl. Alex was killed to show Bens emotional limits, he obviously cracked after Keamy killed her. While I agree that it was a bad move killing these characters, yes even Karl, it had to be done for professional reasons. I'v saw Tania, Alex, on Cold Case last night and she looks fantastic, it amazing how much better one can look when not covered in dirt:biggrin:
LOL I'm sure they look great.

I guess I see why, but why couldn't they have gone to the Temple and disappeared for awhile then come back later? After 16 years of suffering to finally be reunited with her daughter they get killed. Bull I say. It was such great casting too. There was a definite resemblance between the two of them.

LOL I'm sure they look great.

I guess I see why, but why couldn't they have gone to the Temple and disappeared for awhile then come back later? After 16 years of suffering to finally be reunited with her daughter they get killed. Bull I say. It was such great casting too. There was a definite resemblance between the two of them.

I think you'll see them both again.
except they'll be younger and played by diffrent actors.:biggrin:

alex's death was one of the most deaths i have EVER seen. also, when karl and her mother were murdered right in front of her and she gave herself up thinking it would help her! my stomach turns. she was so good even when she was afraid they were going to kill her. she was worried about aaron when they wanted her to put the code in for the fence surrounding the barracks. i will NEVER watch that episode again.

i read an interview with her regarding coming back and she had hoped that she would as a ghost. and her mom, well, i'm sure she'll have some sort of storyline explanation in one of these seasons. she just has to. there is way too much information left for her storyline!!

and as far as ben's reaction. it was typical due to his character. very touching when they left the barracks and he stayed behind. his demeanor while they trudged through the jungle was sufficient. but i think i cried harder than he did.

but why couldn't they have gone to the Temple and disappeared for awhile then come back later?
That would have been much better, but we wouldn't have had the angry Smokey scene, which is one of my favourites, but we would have seen the Temple which would have been nice.
Imagine how bad Ben feels not only is his daughter dead but the last thing she heard him say is that she was a pawn, I can't imagine what guilt he feels.

That would have been much better, but we wouldn't have had the angry Smokey scene, which is one of my favourites, but we would have seen the Temple which would have been nice.
Imagine how bad Ben feels not only is his daughter dead but the last thing she heard him say is that she was a pawn, I can't imagine what guilt he feels.

I'm not sure he feels so guilty. Ben is complicated character, and I think the only guilt he feels was over how badly he botched up things and is now no longer in charge.
100%
I think you'll see them both again.
except they'll be younger and played by diffrent actors.:biggrin:

That would be cool, but I wished there had been a happier ending for them both

there is way too much information left for her storyline!!


Exactly. Who was the science team, and what were they doing there? I never got that. They definitely weren't part of the Dharma Initiative.

Danielle had another job, doing a play I think, as did Karl. Alex was killed to show Bens emotional limits, he obviously cracked after Keamy killed her. While I agree that it was a bad move killing these characters, yes even Karl, it had to be done for professional reasons. I'v saw Tania, Alex, on Cold Case last night and she looks fantastic, it amazing how much better one can look when not covered in dirt:biggrin:

Alex was also on CSI New York, and she was alive the whole eppy :hypocrit:

I'm not sure he feels so guilty. Ben is complicated character, and I think the only guilt he feels was over how badly he botched up things and is now no longer in charge.

He watched his daugter get sot in the head. He no doubt feels partly responsible for it, seeing as those men were there for him, plus of course the last thing she heard him say. Guilt may not be entirely the right word but there is some of that, plus of course the grief he felt after losing her. At that point the fact that he was ousted as the leader of the Others was probably the last thing on his mind, he wanted revenge.

He watched his daughter get shot in the head. He no doubt feels partly responsible for it, seeing as those men were there for him, plus of course the last thing she heard him say. Guilt may not be entirely the right word but there is some of that, plus of course the grief he felt after losing her. At that point the fact that he was ousted as the leader of the Others was probably the last thing on his mind, he wanted revenge.
I think he felt some grief yes, but I think he knew there was a good chance of her being killed. In the one episode where he tells Widmore that he's going to kill his daughter I think it was revenge over the fact that Widmore destroyed his position and screwed up his world.

I think those deaths definitely had their impact; they upped the tension and the stakes, showed us exactly how ruthless the Freightees were, and lastly, how far Ben was willing to go for the sake of the island. Notwithstanding any RL obligations etc on the part of the actors in question, they still worked for the show.

I was most struck by how confident Ben seemed to be, that his tactics would work. Right up till Alex was actually shot, he looked like he believed Keamy would back down, and things would play out according to his own plans. That look of utter horror, disbelief and devastation on Ben's face right after was perfectly executed, and so chilling! But it seemed as if for the first time, Ben was in over his head, no?

I was most struck by how confident Ben seemed to be, that his tactics would work. Right up till Alex was actually shot, he looked like he believed Keamy would back down, and things would play out according to his own plans. That look of utter horror, disbelief and devastation on Ben's face right after was perfectly executed, and so chilling! But it seemed as if for the first time, Ben was in over his head, no?

You're so right, and it was a totally new situation for him. Ben was operating on his wits here, playing everything by ear. Ben was used to being able win with his superior brain power. He was used to manipulating people into exactly what he wanted. His ego was pretty high on how good he was at messing with people and getting them to do what he wanted. This was shock that his great skill that he put so much stock in hadn't worked.

I was particularly disappointed because I always thought that the right Rousseau flashbacks would tie up a lot of the mysterious loose ends from the first couple of seasons. I'm guessing we'll still get Rousseau's story in flashbacks at some point, but I thought the total mystery surrounding her was compelling and that the writers would seize that opportunity to make sense of a lot of their random plots (the sicknesses, the electromagnet, her crew, her relationship to the Others, maybe even the smoke monster and the whispers). Instead of dealing with any of those mysteries that I still care about, they just keep making new mysteries that are much less interesting (like who are the Oceanic 6, how did Locke end up dead, etc). Rousseau's death signaled to me that they're done with a lot of the old good mysteries.

I was particularly disappointed because I always thought that the right Rousseau flashbacks would tie up a lot of the mysterious loose ends from the first couple of seasons. I'm guessing we'll still get Rousseau's story in flashbacks at some point, but I thought the total mystery surrounding her was compelling and that the writers would seize that opportunity to make sense of a lot of their random plots (the sicknesses, the electromagnet, her crew, her relationship to the Others, maybe even the smoke monster and the whispers). Instead of dealing with any of those mysteries that I still care about, they just keep making new mysteries that are much less interesting (like who are the Oceanic 6, how did Locke end up dead, etc). Rousseau's death signaled to me that they're done with a lot of the old good mysteries.

I think that is the biggest reason why it's so sad. There is more to that story, and I think that it has a bearing on a lot that is going on . Hopefully we will know more. I just wish they would have let Rousseau and her daughter be reunited and happy in the end.

I think he felt some grief yes, but I think he knew there was a good chance of her being killed. In the one episode where he tells Widmore that he's going to kill his daughter I think it was revenge over the fact that Widmore destroyed his position and screwed up his world.

I disagree. Alex was not supposed to die. There were rules. That is why Ben was so confident that Keamy would not kill Alex, that is why Ben said that Widmore changed the rules. That is also why Ben is making it his mission to kill Penelope. The rules dictated that Alex was supposed to be safe. Of course he feels grief.

I disagree. Alex was not supposed to die. There were rules. That is why Ben was so confident that Keamy would not kill Alex, that is why Ben said that Widmore changed the rules. That is also why Ben is making it his mission to kill Penelope. The rules dictated that Alex was supposed to be safe. Of course he feels grief.
How do we know those were the rules he was referring to, and how do we know that is was Widmore and not Keamy himself that changed the rules since it had already been shown that Keamy may have gone against Widmore's real instructions? We can only guess from the scenario that was played out. I think what happened there was a moment of realization for Ben. If you listen to how Juliette and some of the others spoke of Ben and watched his character over time, this was a man who totally believed that he had mind powers that would make others do things his way. The reason why he was so confident that Keamy would not kill her is he thought he had the ability to make Keamy not do it. When he failed a realization hit Ben that he had lost control of his situation. He was no longer in charge in the way that he was.

I think it's a hard idea to believe that Ben wouldn't feel grief, but I think in case while he may be sad that she's gone the deflating of his ego got in the way of any true grief. The fact that he was willing to let all those innocent people die on the boat from the bomb (it was "not" his "problem") shows just exactly how heartless he can be.

In the one episode where he tells Widmore that he's going to kill his daughter I think it was revenge over the fact that Widmore destroyed his position and screwed up his world.
Nope, the Others have a justice system that calls for an eye for an eye, Widmore's men killed his daughter so Ben want's to return the favour. You really don't think there is any humanity in Ben do you? Losing a child is one of the worst pains you can ever feel, I hope you don't know that or ever find out about it, I have a friend who did, his son wasn't murdered he died of a medical condition, can't think of the name, but that was 8 years ago and he hasn't moved past it nor do I think he should, to see my friend so broke up about that, then to think what if he had watched his son get shot and even possibly due to something he did, imagine how mush worse the pain would be then. To suggest that Ben is only angry at Widmore because he is no longer the leader of the Others, which btw isn't actually Widmores fault, is insane.

Ben isn't the leader anymore because of mistakes he made, he let the O6 off the Island, which for all the time we've known him he said he can't let anyone leave, yes Jack wasn't on Jacobs list, but maybe the other O6er's were, I personally think Kate might have been as do I think Hurley is as well maybe even Sawyer.

Nope, the Others have a justice system that calls for an eye for an eye, Widmore's men killed his daughter so Ben want's to return the favour.
If that's the case then why did they have an investigation and a trial over Juliette's killing of one of their own? I think it's a bit more complex than that.

You really don't think there is any humanity in Ben do you? Losing a child is one of the worst pains you can ever feel, I hope you don't know that or ever find out about it
Not at all. I think he's very human. I'm not saying that he isn't effected by her death. I just feel that he's too messed up psychologically to feel true grief. He's too into his own pain to be understanding of other people's situation. If he did really care about other people he wouldn't have made half the decisions that he did.

Actually I do know about the death of a child. My brother lost his daughter at 5 months. I know how I felt about it, and I know that it was 10 times worse for my brother and his wife.

To suggest that Ben is only angry at Widmore because he is no longer the leader of the Others, which btw isn't actually Widmores fault, is insane.

Ben isn't the leader anymore because of mistakes he made, he let the O6 off the Island, which for all the time we've known him he said he can't let anyone leave, yes Jack wasn't on Jacobs list, but maybe the other O6er's were, I personally think Kate might have been as do I think Hurley is as well maybe even Sawyer.

I know it's his mistakes that are the reason that he isn't, but his twisted psyche isn't going to allow him to completely acknowledge that fact. He's looking for someone else to blame, and Widmore is a good target. It was his people who pulled the trigger and killed his daughter.

I think Hurley is on the list, but not Kate and Sawyer. It's been established that they are not well thought of by the Others. They take direction from Jacob so it can be assumed that their not being on the list is why.

Sorry to make assumptions Islandangel.

The Juliet thing is a simple answer, no one was there to witness the shooting and they needed to show the new recruits, the tailies they took, how things work.

And what if every decision Ben made was not his but was Jacobs, what if Jacob ordered him to do everything he did, although I don't think that's the case, because if he did follow orders he would still be on the Island, or maybe Jacob knew that if Ben was dethroned but was allowed to stay on the Island it would only cause problems for Locke and would only be a matter of time before Ben pulled one of his cons to retake his leadership position, so ousting him forever was the only way to allow a smoth transition for Locke.

Jacob's list, they don't like Sawyer because he is on the wrong side of the line as is Kate, don't forget Kate willingly killed her father, she seems perfect for the Others. The only one Danny mentions as not being on Jacob's list is Jack, he even says that he "Knows Ben would rather die then let them go" if Ben was conning his people, why would he say that Jack wasn't on Jacobs list but Kate and Sawyer are? wouldn't it make more sense to say that they are all on the list and just be done with it. I also think that is why he lets Kate and Sawyer leave the Island, although Sawyer doesn't leave, because he knew that if he let people on the list go they would have to get back and that would be his way back.

Sorry to make assumptions Islandangel.
The Juliet thing is a simple answer, no one was there to witness the shooting and they needed to show the new recruits, the tailies they took, how things work

Interesting but things proceeded like there was an established code of how things worked. I still think it's more complicated than an eye for an eye.

And what if every decision Ben made was not his but was Jacobs, what if Jacob ordered him to do everything he did, although I don't think that's the case, because if he did follow orders he would still be on the Island, or maybe Jacob knew that if Ben was dethroned but was allowed to stay on the Island it would only cause problems for Locke and would only be a matter of time before Ben pulled one of his cons to retake his leadership position, so ousting him forever was the only way to allow a smoth transition for Locke.

I think that's part of the reason that he has to leave. I think he had plenty of warning signs before it got to this that the things he was doing were wrong. I just think he chose not to see them.

Jacob's list, they don't like Sawyer because he is on the wrong side of the line as is Kate, don't forget Kate willingly killed her father, she seems perfect for the Others. The only one Danny mentions as not being on Jacob's list is Jack, he even says that he "Knows Ben would rather die then let them go" if Ben was conning his people, why would he say that Jack wasn't on Jacobs list but Kate and Sawyer are? wouldn't it make more sense to say that they are all on the list and just be done with it. I also think that is why he lets Kate and Sawyer leave the Island, although Sawyer doesn't leave, because he knew that if he let people on the list go they would have to get back and that would be his way back.

I think the killing of the fathers thing is something symbolic for John and Ben and frankly I think that came out of Ben's psychosis. No one else appeared to need to do that to join the Others. Besides their idea was ultimately to kill them. Locke tried to make a case to save Kate and was unable to convince them because her file was too full of ways she had broken the law.

I also don't see any real evidence that Kate and Saywer are on the list. When Jack was told that he wasn't on the list that was a singular conversation addressed to him. No one else would have to have been mentioned. Ben would rather die then let them go because if they were able to leave the island they could put the island in danger by exposing it to the world. I don't think he knew at that time that people physically leaving would cause any problems. I think he let them go because he didn't think they would get off the island anyway and be killed by the people on the freighter

To answer your question, Islandangel, yes, there was a major brouhaha when this episode aired.

I was one of those most deeply shocked. First, because that was the most brutal scene I have ever witnessed on television. It's probably one of the most shocking in TV history. I won't ever be able to watch it again.

Second, because Alex was the one truly good and entirely heroic character on the island--but always surprising and not the least bit boring. And the question of how a man like Ben could have reared a young woman like Alex, and how they could have loved each other, is one of the most profound mysteries of LOST.

I do realize now how central this event was in LOST mythology, because it set up Ben's motivation and story for the rest of his life. But it was also a huge part of the way LOST has turned so dark and hopeless for so many characters.

To answer your question, Islandangel, yes, there was a major brouhaha when this episode aired.

I was one of those most deeply shocked. First, because that was the most brutal scene I have ever witnessed on television. It's probably one of the most shocking in TV history. I won't ever be able to watch it again.

Second, because Alex was the one truly good and entirely heroic character on the island--but always surprising and not the least bit boring. And the question of how a man like Ben could have reared a young woman like Alex, and how they could have loved each other, is one of the most profound mysteries of LOST.

I do realize now how central this event was in LOST mythology, because it set up Ben's motivation and story for the rest of his life. But it was also a huge part of the way LOST has turned so dark and hopeless for so many characters.

Because I think she was more of her mother's child than people knew.

Dark and hopeless in terms of earthly issues. In terms of larger more universal issues I think there is hope there still.

To answer your question, Islandangel, yes, there was a major brouhaha when this episode aired.

I was one of those most deeply shocked. First, because that was the most brutal scene I have ever witnessed on television. It's probably one of the most shocking in TV history. I won't ever be able to watch it again.

Second, because Alex was the one truly good and entirely heroic character on the island--but always surprising and not the least bit boring. And the question of how a man like Ben could have reared a young woman like Alex, and how they could have loved each other, is one of the most profound mysteries of LOST.

I do realize now how central this event was in LOST mythology, because it set up Ben's motivation and story for the rest of his life. But it was also a huge part of the way LOST has turned so dark and hopeless for so many characters.

everything you said is good!;)

i couldn't have express my own feelings any better. it was a fine episode, but it is the only one i deleted on my DVR.

I was really not happy with what happened to Danielle and Alex either. One of the better "love stories" on the show and that is how they handled it??(and it was a very sweet story about love and the lengths one will go to, like Danielle). There was so much more they could have and should have done with those two (and let's not forget sweet Karl!). I was completely shocked with it too and that is also one of the few scenes I absolutely will not watch again.

However, I also so her on Cold Case the other night and she did look pretty hot! (Amazing what a hot shower and new clothes will do for a girl!) I think she's got a nice career ahead of her.

But still............that was not cool!