Who were those guys who captured Sawyer and Juliet?
Jones threatened to chop off Juliet's hand pretty quickly, like he has experience with missing limbs. Danielle's group, maybe?

But he did say our Island, right?

So maybe not.

I thought they were the Pre-Purge Dharma people because of the jumpsuits.

They appeared to be wearing military uniforms. I would have said US Army (remember the knife shared by Ana Lucia and Goodwin?), but the one guy seemed to have an accent. U.K. or Australia?

Remember back in I Do when Jack found that cabinet full of guns. There was a lot of talk back then about those guns being WWII Nazi handguns. Whether those guys where Nazi soldiers or not, I don't know, but I do suspect that they are WWII soldiers.

They seemed... I don't know.... crazy, my guess is they are Danielle's team.

WWII British soldiers -- yes finally the knife!!

The jumpsuits made me think they were Dharma but their incredibly hostile and rash behavior seems to indicate otherwise.

It seemed weird to me that anyone, esp Dharma would start raining hell (flaming arrows) down of a beach of people they have never engaged with before. Why do that?

Also
flaming arrows?
wtf
they clearly had guns, which would have been a more efficient and secretive method of killing them

something's very fishy

something I was wondering, are the time jumps occurring at regular intervals? it doesn't seem like these new guys would be a lingering threat if the island just jumps again pretty soon.

WWII British soldiers -- yes finally the knife!!

And are they the same people who were shooting the flaming arrows? That's medieval siege tactics. Very confusing time placement.

^^^Two factions maybe.

What kind of soldiers were they?

And are they the same people who were shooting the flaming arrows? That's medieval siege tactics. Very confusing time placement.


I don't think so. I would say that they are defintely two different groups of "hostiles" from two very different periods of time.

yeah even if they were WW2 soldiers, it wouldn't really rationalize the flaming arrows or their rather brutal behavior

But if they were Nazi soldiers, then the brutal part makes perfect sense.

Could they be soldiers sent to the island to infiltrate Dharma before they got the ball rolling, and the "energy" in place?

They did reference the Nazis earlier with the Hitler thing, either to throw us off or get us thinking... and it worked haha

I'd guess they're Widmore guys, from when he controlled da joint.

I thought one of those guys was Tom - the one that Locke killed with the knife actually? Am I right? (He was always meant to die on the island!)

But if they were Nazi soldiers, then the brutal part makes perfect sense.

Wouldn't explain why he was named Jones and speaking with a British accent, though.

Was there a time skip between the arrow attack and running into these guys?? If so I wouldn't be surprised if the arrows were being shot by some ancient four-toed race.

There was a lot of fighting and a lot of soldiers stationed in the South Pacific during WWII. I wouldn't expect that we'd need some complicated explanation as to how or why these soilders came to be there. Maybe they were stationed there or maybe they crashed there. Either way, I doubt that it is important. All that matters is that we fully understand that all of the Left Behinders are in great danger.
100%
Wouldn't explain why he was named Jones and speaking with a British accent, though.




True, although all of the Nazi soldiers in The Sound Of Music also spoke with British accents, didn't they? ;)

i'm not new to lost but i'm new to this site, and i have no idea where this nazi WWII stuff is coming from. nothing about these people suggested nazis or that era. based on yemi's plane crashing and desmond being in the hatch, the jumps back in time that the island made in these first 2 episodes were approx. 3 years. there did not appear to be any major time differences.... yet. the jumpsuits suggest dharma, but with this show, the easy answer is probably wrong. the arrows are definitely strange. could there be any connection to the very first scene of Because You Left when Candle (aka a bunch of names) is about to do an orientation for "the arrow" which he says is a facility for defense against the hostiles?

They seemed military - pre Dharma. And the flaming arrow people were probably Richard's Hostiles again.

i'm not new to lost but i'm new to this site, and i have no idea where this nazi WWII stuff is coming from. nothing about these people suggested nazis or that era. based on yemi's plane crashing and desmond being in the hatch, the jumps back in time that the island made in these first 2 episodes were approx. 3 years. there did not appear to be any major time differences.... yet. the jumpsuits suggest dharma, but with this show, the easy answer is probably wrong. the arrows are definitely strange. could there be any connection to the very first scene of Because You Left when Candle (aka a bunch of names) is about to do an orientation for "the arrow" which he says is a facility for defense against the hostiles?

welcome!

as a new arrival you are gonna have to get used to the completely improbable theories that people throw out there and learn to ignore them
lol

the connection to The Arrow is interesting, but Dharma had guns, remember

Military, but not WW II. British Empire accent, maybe Australian. Spoilers indicate:


That a young Widmore is part of this crew.

True, although all of the Nazi soldiers in The Sound Of Music also spoke with British accents, didn't they? ;)

Actually you're kinda right--I speak some German and have traveled there several times and many Germans, especially well-educated ones who are fluent in English, speak English with an accent very similar to the British one. And of course Jones isn't necessarily his real name.

I believe that it is perfectly reasonble to assume that the island is skipping all over the place in time--not just tiptoeing across the last three years.

Remember Richard coming to see Locke at his birth and again at during his childhood. The second time Richard asked him for an object. Tonight Richard revealed to him which object he wants Locke to give him. He told him that the next time they meet, Richard won't remember Locke, but that he should give him the compass. Clearly he is referring to a time prior to the crash of 815, since the other where almost immediately aware of who all of the 815ers were. I believe Richard was referring to their next meetings as being the one during Locke's childhood. That alone would mean that these jumps span a much greater spectrum of time then just 3 years.

Yeah, I gotta go with some of the others here and pour some cold water (ha ha) on the Nazi theory. There were way too many other ways to place that group then Nazis (which didn't fit at all) or even "disguised" Nazis. I think we will learn more in the next few episodes as they explain everything! Ha Ha.

The military people were definately :loco: but I think the flaming arrows were the "hostiles".

That alone would mean that these jumps span a much greater spectrum of time then just 3 years.


1) that incident already happened, so it can't be changed by locke. plus how would it help.

2) all i said was the things that happened in tonight's episodes didn't seem to jump too drastically in one direction or the other. that isn't to say it won't happen, i'm sure the jumps are going to get even crazier. i half expected them to pop up during the black rock's time at the beginning of tonight.

i half expected them to pop up during the black rock's time at the beginning of tonight.


Flaming arrows could easily be dated back to that period. Just food for thought.

Could the soldiers be related to Widmore? I say this because one or more of them had British accents and Widmore is British, admittedly it's a loose connection I just thought it was odd that they had British accents. Plus Miles said Widmore had been looking for the island for twenty years. But I think the island is skipping around way further than three or four years they could have gone back decades.

Those soldiers seemed to be British and the uniforms would suggest sometime between the 40's and 60's. The flaming arrows I'm sure came from a different group. The other group wouldn't have to be from some distant time to use flaming arrows though. It could be a group that doesn't have access to guns or eschews technology altogether.

Those soldiers seemed to be British and the uniforms would suggest sometime between the 40's and 60's. The flaming arrows I'm sure came from a different group. The other group wouldn't have to be from some distant time to use flaming arrows though. It could be a group that doesn't have access to guns or eschews technology altogether.
The group that launched the arrows could be the same Others we've come to know and love, the island may have moved back to a time before the others and the losties reached a detante, or more accurately the losties won the war.

Military, but not WW II. British Empire accent, maybe Australian. Spoilers indicate:


That a young Widmore is part of this crew.


G-d damn it... I would consider this a major spoiler, so as a warning to my fellow readers, if you don't want to be majorly spoiled, don't click this.

In the past, whenever I've clicked the spoiler button, it's always been stuff referring to previews or sneak peaks... which I don't consider *real* spoilers.

Guess in the post DarkUFO/LostFan108 era, nothing's sacred.

i thought of widmore as soon as one of the soldiers said something about "our island"

widmore - the island is mine and always has been

i thought of widmore as soon as one of the soldiers said something about "our island"

widmore - the island is mine and always has been
I just noticed the accents I didn't think of the phrasing our island. But I thought of Widmore because of the accents and the fact that Widmore has been looking for the island for a very long time and those uniforms looked like 50's era uniforms.

G-d damn it... I would consider this a major spoiler, so as a warning to my fellow readers, if you don't want to be majorly spoiled, don't click this.

In the past, whenever I've clicked the spoiler button, it's always been stuff referring to previews or sneak peaks... which I don't consider *real* spoilers.

Guess in the post DarkUFO/LostFan108 era, nothing's sacred.

It was spoiler fonted, so you could expect it to be a spoiler.

My first reaction was that the arrow shooters were the Others, pre-meeting the Losties.

What accent was that?!
Was that a hint as to when they were?!
I saw the name Jones.
Is there enough information in this scene to
guess what time they are in.

Perhaps one of these guys had the military
knife that Anna Luca had?!

That was U.S. issued I believe...
damn, I'm confused.

They weren't holding M-16s. They looked like older single shot field rifles, and the accent (I'm TERRIBLE at accents) either had some scottish or english to it. My money is on a time period during which Widmore was in control of the island.

It was spoiler fonted, so you could expect it to be a spoiler.

No shit... did you read what I wrote? Point is, even when things are behind spoiler tags, in the past, every time I've encountered them it's been things like talking about an observation from a preview or sneak peak. Nothing substantial.

*That* was substantial. That's all I'm saying, in warning to others like me who avoid major spoilers.

My money is on a time period during which Widmore was in control of the island.

I've never thought of it that way. Great thinking!

Are we sure that they weren't in Dharma suits? Because that is what I initially thought?

I took it to be an English accent

Dang I just posted about this in another thread.

Yes, I saw Jones too, and the accent did appear British, but I'm sure our Brit folk will clear it up.

Since they wanted to hack of Juliet's hand, could these people be the ones who chopped off Candle's and Monrand's arm?

I've never thought of it that way. Great thinking!

Are we sure that they weren't in Dharma suits? Because that is what I initially thought?

I dont know 100%, but I'm pretty darn sure.
The name tags were definitely different.

I don't think so. I would say that they are defintely two different groups of "hostiles" from two very different periods of time.

You're right. It was two different time periods. I'm thinking the Natives were the ones with the flaming arrows and the soldiers were the ones from another time period.

Dang I just posted about this in another thread.

Yes, I saw Jones too, and the accent did appear British, but I'm sure our Brit folk will clear it up.

Since they wanted to hack of Juliet's hand, could these people be the ones who chopped off Candle's and Monrand's arm?

Hmm...that's a REALLY interesting question. But how would that fit into the timing? Chang was Dharma, Ben's dad was Dharma. We don't know all the particulars but we have to assume that not a whole lot of time passed between the purge and the arrival of the losties. Enough time for Roger and the rest of the DI to decompose, but not enough time for Ben to have aged dramatically. And we have to assume Chang was in the pit with the rest of the DI.

Yeah i thought they were definitely in dharma suits. Im gonna watch it again later guess ill see then unless someone has a ss of it

They looked more like the pre-BDU era Olive Drab uniforms. But they were on so briefly, it's hard to tell.

When I first saw them I thought they were Australian WWII infantry that could have gotten on the island during the war. The station was active during that time - broadcasting the numbers that were picked up from the listening post in Australia... That would also explain the M1 rifles IF those were issued to Australian units in the Pacific Theater. I dunno that much about military history...

Let's try Australian as the accent. Is this how Candle lost his arm?

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=121079&fullsize=1
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=121078&fullsize=1

Let's try Australian as the accent. Is this how Candle lost his arm?

I was thinking Australian as well.

I've never thought of it that way. Great thinking!

Are we sure that they weren't in Dharma suits? Because that is what I initially thought?
Me too but I just saw the scene on the westcoast feed and they seemed to be a darker colour then the DI suits, I think they are Rousseaus team, they did seem a little crazy after all.

Sounds more like an Australian accent and actually Alan Dale/Charles Widmore is Australian. I don't know if we have any proof that Widmore is English as opposed to being Australian.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=121079&fullsize=1
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=121157&fullsize=1

Sounds more like an Australian accent and actually Alan Dale/Charles Widmore is Australian. I don't know if we have any proof that Widmore is English as opposed to being Australian.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=121079&fullsize=1
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=121157&fullsize=1

Hey Sam...

as an aussie it didnt sound like an aussie accent but it wasnt as broad as an english accent is...kind of like he's lived in both places for a good amount of time

I'm pretty sure he had a dharma logo on his shirt pocket. And his accent was a generic quite posh English accent.

I can't remember - did we get a flash/time skip between when the flaming arrows rained down and when the British military-looking guys showed up? (he sounded English to me, fwiw)

Good call on a possible Widmore connection there. The timing could work out if they were 1950's-ish pre-DHARMA.

I also had the thought of the flaming arrow people possibly being from the Black Rock era.

I am wondering if we are going to be shown a visual time-jump every time the Island (or the people out-of-time) jumps in time, or if we are going to be left to guess for ourselves.

While watching (and trying to keep track of whether they were in the past or future) I was under the impression that the arrow attack and the Soldiers were during a "future jump", and perhaps some Military force finds the island in the future (after Bad Things happen?). However I think it's easier to speculate if we can put the events somewhere in the past, because it has more "big picture" possibilities such as a Widmore related force, an advance guard for Dharma, etc etc.

As for the Arrows, I think their source must be seperate from the Soldiers (why use arrows when you have guns?), and if it took place in the "past", then the original Hostiles would be my best guess. If however it was in the future, how about the Arrows being fired by future time-jumpy versions of Sawyer, Juliet, etc? Perhaps in order to maintain events happening they way they do (the group being split up, Saywer and Juliet finding Locke, whatever happens next), they have to make sure that someone fires Flaming Arrows onto the beach? Far out I know, but crazier things have happened, right? *veg*

I think the soldiers were Widmore's men from a time when he controlled, or was taking over, the Island. The flaming arrows were shot by the people who built the four-toed statue, from a different time on the Island.

I did not see a dharma logo in the several times I've watched this clip.
Neither the uniform design, color, nor their accents, nor their guns match what we have seen of Dharma.
I really don't see why these would be dharmites, and not members of the other 1,000 groups that have stomped around the island.

I don't know who they were, but that was a pretty barbaric tactic.
It made me think that they dated a ways back

I was pretty sure it was supposed to be a young Widmore, I think last season when Ben visits him he calls it "My Island". He sure seemed territorial in this part as well..

I'm leaning towards Australian military WWII era, some of the guns the others were using back in Season 1 or 2 were WWII german ones if I'm remembering correctly. I think that these guys probably were stranded on the island and dealing with Others... wonder if the sickness Danielle referred to had anything to do with the brutality as well..
squid

I lightened the 3 photos from Dark UFO's site. I don't see any logos on them, or any other insignia besides name patches.

Here (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2815/63165313ix8.jpg) here (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1364/96384450jq9.jpg) and here (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2711/92954470cm1.jpg).

After the Flaming Arrows i was expecting those people to be more primitive! i mean c'mon flaming arrows are pretty primitive, so when they showed up in uniforms and had guns i was surprised, but if you pay close attention to some of the previews you can get a glimpse of what looks like "The Army" with bows and arrows! This "Army" is definitely pre-Dharma, i would be willing to guess that the time period is mid 50's or early 60's...or way earlier! WHO KNOWS???

My money is on a time period during which Widmore was in control of the island.

...was or will be in control? Did the island skip to the future?

...was or will be in control? Did the island skip to the future?


No Way most def. in the past! Flaming Arrows! Flaming Arrows!

I'm sticking with my original thought that it was an Aussie accent. I also immediately thought 1950s.

After the Flaming Arrows i was expecting those people to be more primitive! i mean c'mon flaming arrows are pretty primitive, so when they showed up in uniforms and had guns i was surprised, but if you pay close attention to some of the previews you can get a glimpse of what looks like "The Army" with bows and arrows! This "Army" is definitely pre-Dharma, i would be willing to guess that the time period is mid 50's or early 60's...or way earlier! WHO KNOWS???

I don't think the army guys were shooting the arrows. I believe that our Losties jumped into a very unfortunate time and found themselves in the middle of a war between the army guys and the arrow shooters (hostiles).

Aussie's might also support why Lenny and Sam Toomey were at a radio listening post - maybe there was an Australian troop that went missing in the Pacific (1988?) (Just looking at pieces)

S1E18 Martha: Sam and Leonard were stationed at a listening post monitoring long wave transmissions out of the Pacific. Boring job. Sam hated it. Nothing to do but listen to static night after night. Til one night, bout 16 years ago, there's something in the static, a voice comes through, a voice repeating those numbers over and over again.

I think the guys with the guns were NOT the ones shooting the flaming arrows

I don't think the army guys were shooting the arrows. I believe that our Losties jumped into a very unfortunate time and found themselves in the middle of a war between the army guys and the arrow shooters (hostiles).

This is what I believe as well.

It could even be that various groups that previously have been on the island are slipping around in time and now meeting where before they did not. Breaks the "rule" of no changing what has already happened, but its my suspicion that due to the island having been moved and becoming unstuck that things now can be changed.

I don't think the army guys were shooting the arrows. I believe that our Losties jumped into a very unfortunate time and found themselves in the middle of a war between the army guys and the arrow shooters (hostiles).

I was thinking this as well, I was thinking possibly the hostiles versus Danielle's troop.

Hahahaha. Australian accents? Are you serious? It's as English is it comes. I also never saw Dharma logos anywhere on them.

Heres a link to Jones holding the gun... maybe a gun nut knows what it is?

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/351/jonesir0.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonesir0.jpg)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/jonesir0.jpg/1/w634.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img217/jonesir0.jpg/1/)

I made the leap this morning that the "english" dude was widmore. But I'm probably wrong about that. It's more likely that these dudes are apart of Widmore's island timeline.

I actually thought they might have jumped back to Leonard's team ...Connect Four man that Hurley got the #'s from!

Maybe Widmore was connected to Leonard's team?

When the guy said he was going to chop off her hand, I immediately thought of Pirates. Punishment then ask questions.

The more I think about it the more out of place the flaming arrows seem. Arrows can't travel _that_ far and firing them vertically (not to mention accurately) out of a thick jungle would be near impossible because of the canopy, unless they were doing it from a large clearing (which we know doesn't exist near the beach). They would've had to be pretty close to the beach, so why didn't the Losties see anyone? The military guys are definitely a separate force, as they were much further inland and coming from a different direction than where the arrows were coming from.

It seems that, if a time jump didn't occur between the arrows and the military guys, that the military guys are also probably time travelers of sorts, and mistook Juliet and Sawyer for the people firing the arrows -- perhaps explaining why they were so violent, because they encountered the "arrow people" previously and expected them to be hostile.

His accent really is hard to pin down. Thanks for the possible explanation, bubbblyone.

I don't remember, but did Locke kill the guy who was holding Juliet and Sawyer? If so, it couldn't have been Widmore.

I made the leap this morning that the "english" dude was widmore. But I'm probably wrong about that. It's more likely that these dudes are apart of Widmore's island timeline.

That's what I was thinking. Don't remember if we see all of their uniforms clearly since they all have the names on them. Did one of them say Widmore? Of course they could be Hostiles that killed and stole the uniforms from some other soldiers that happened to find the island during WW2. There was tons of Pacific action at the time, so a boat could of happened on the island by mistake during the time.

I was thinking possibly the Black Rock shipmates - could be a stretch though

this is a little off topic and possibly WAY off track but my first thoughts were the flaming arrows came from the crew of the black rock and the soldier were the crew from the submarine. Not very specific but it would give us general time period references. I also thought the soldiers were dharma at first glance but maybe they are really a "scouting group" that found the island as a place for the DI.

Sounds more like an Australian accent and actually Alan Dale/Charles Widmore is Australian. I don't know if we have any proof that Widmore is English as opposed to being Australian.

Dale is from New Zealand, and we heard his own, true distinctly New Zealand accent in the night scene with Ben. That was probably the writers' way of alerting us to Widmore's true background being more Down Under than Posh Brit.

My ear's not keen enough to tell whether "cut off her other hand" was more Brit or more NZ. Not enough dialogue. I hope some of our Down Under friends weigh in!
100%
The more I think about it the more out of place the flaming arrows seem. Arrows can't travel _that_ far and firing them vertically (not to mention accurately) out of a thick jungle would be near impossible because of the canopy, unless they were doing it from a large clearing (which we know doesn't exist near the beach). .

I had the same feeling, those arrows were way high and there were so many. Either TPTB was doing it to amp up the terror factor, or those arrows were coming from something more modern than ancient bows.

From the screenshots, all I can make out for names are Jones (the bossy one) and Mattingly (i think...and that would be the one that is supposed to cut off her hand).

Regarding when and where Jones and the other soldiers came from...

I'm pretty sure those guys were sporting Enfield rifles. They were standard issue for British and Australian WWII infantry.

On the subject of the arrows...

If you have no way to get more ammo for your guns, do you ever waste a single shot? No, you choose your shots and scenarios carefully. You can, however, make all the arrows you would ever need and rain them down on groups with no concern for lost resources. While the use of flaming arrows seems improbable; it might have been to further the shock value during the seige. The distance and arc of the arrows (or crossbow bolts) was not unrealistic for an attack on an unsuspecting group... Medieval tactics are nothing to scoff at.

Good soldiers improvise munitions and resources when cut off from supplies.

In conclusion, I think the arrows came from the soldiers and the soldiers were WWII Allied infantry stranded on the island during the war. Maybe this is how Widmore originally came to be on the island.

G-d damn it... I would consider this a major spoiler, so as a warning to my fellow readers, if you don't want to be majorly spoiled, don't click this.

I'm a spoiler hound, and I've not seen anything to suggest the information in that post is anything more than spec.

Military, but not WW II. British Empire accent, maybe Australian. Spoilers indicate:


That a young Widmore is part of this crew.


Now why in the world would you go and do that?

The distance and arc of the arrows (or crossbow bolts) .

Oh, crossbows for sure. I was just sorta playing off some very old specs that ancient egyptian archers would show up.

I don't know much about medieval weaponry, will take your word that they had those kind of crossbows. Thanks..

I believe Mattingly was the one that received Locke's dagger. My theory is that Widmore was in "charge" of the island before the Dharma Initiative and before The Purge. I also think that he came to the island by force (jeez, he likes violence, first the freighter now this.)

Miles mentioned last night that Widmore has been searching for the island for 20 years. If we take this to mean 20 years since Miles came to the island that would mean 1988 or so. The Purge, according to Lostpedia, occured in 1992. Dharma came to the island in 1970.

So here's the theory continued: This probably occured before 1970, I'm guessing around 1960 due to the nature of the uniforms the men are wearing and the fact that the guns are older. If Jones is Charles Widmore, this would put him close to that age.

I, however, don't feel that that is Charles Widmore. I definitely feel that Widmore is their boss and that this is shortly after Widmore has taken control of the island. I like to think of these men as the 1st Freighter crew.

Just a theory, poke holes in it if you like.

I don't think the army guys were shooting the arrows. I believe that our Losties jumped into a very unfortunate time and found themselves in the middle of a war between the army guys and the arrow shooters (hostiles).

right after i posted that i was thinking the SAME thing! thats a good thought!

I posted this in another thread and just wanted to say it here as well...

Regarding when and where Jones and the other soldiers came from...

I'm pretty sure those guys were sporting Enfield rifles. They were standard issue for British and Australian WWII infantry.

On the subject of the arrows...

If you have no way to get more ammo for your guns, do you ever waste a single shot? No, you choose your shots and scenarios carefully. You can, however, make all the arrows you would ever need and rain them down on groups with no concern for lost resources. While the use of flaming arrows seems improbable; it might have been to further the shock value during the seige. The distance and arc of the arrows (or crossbow bolts) was not unrealistic for an attack on an unsuspecting group... Medieval tactics are nothing to scoff at.

Good soldiers improvise munitions, tactics and resources when cut off from supplies.

In conclusion, I think the arrows came from the soldiers and the soldiers were WWII Allied infantry stranded on the island during the war. Maybe this is how Widmore originally came to be on the island. I also think that it had to be during the war or soon after considering the fact that "Jones" had a very young looking face.

Methinks that the flaming arrows are the Hostiles as we know them.

Methinks that the army types, are, well, the army.

Methinks that they landed back in the 50's and that the Army and the Hostiles are fighting each other.

I think that what we'll end up seeing is that the army (british, us, aussie...NATO lets call em) shows up to do nuclear testing in the south pacific, and that widmore is part of that group. Problem is, that they didn't know about the Hostiles...and they've been attacking the Army since they got there. And it being the island, the army is cut off from the outside world.

Widmore most likely is an army guy and he'll eventually escape.

Methinks that Alpert has now.."seen the future" of the island (ala the natives of North America did when they white man started moving in) and is looking for the choosen one since the hostiles barely fought off this latest intrusion.

Alpert will meet Locke. Locke will give him the compass and say...I am from the future...Alpert will say...phssaw, prove it. Locke will say..you gave me this. Alpert will say...thats my compass...from the BLACK ROCK....Locke will say...told ya...Alpert will say...awesome, lead us...bright lights flash and off the Losties go again.

Alpert will then leave the island, knowing that Locke from the future is about to born, and check for himself. Voila! He is real. Few years later, Alpert visits him and gives him the old Dali Lama trick...and Locke doesn't choose the compass though, and Alpert leaves...perturbed.

Ok. I have spent too much time mulling this over so I am going to through this out there. Laugh if you will. :)

Jones = Jacob

Maybe???

Ok. I have spent too much time mulling this over so I am going to through this out there. Laugh if you will. :)

Jones = Jacob

Maybe???

Could be!

Jones at this point could be anyone. But I'm thinking that the army guys are definitely allied troops from WW2, primarily because I couldn't stop thinking "Listen, Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in time" the whole episode.

And that's set in WW2.

Hahahaha. Australian accents? Are you serious?

I could be way off but it actually sounded more like a New Zealand accent to me, not Aussie. However, it could have been someone from Aussie or New Zealand trying to do an English accent but it definitely sounded New Zealand to me...

With NZ being so close to Australia, where the flight took off, they are also near Antarctica (polar bears), Papa New Guinea, Indonesia (where they may have landed when "rescued") and there are some unnamed Islands floating about in the South Pacific.

I think if we can nail the military guy's accent, we'll have a better clue as to where the Island is.

Could be!

Jones at this point could be anyone. But I'm thinking that the army guys are definitely allied troops from WW2, primarily because I couldn't stop thinking "Listen, Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in time" the whole episode.

And that's set in WW2.

Billy Pilgrim! Yes! I thought that too.

The rifles looked like Lee Enfield .303's, though I didn't get the closest look in the world at them. That was the standard battle rifle of the Commonwealth for most of the 20th century, which would be consistent with Australia. I also could have sworn I saw at least one guy holding a smaller STEN Gun, which was an early submachine gun design created for commando operations in WWII-which again fits a timeline similar to what a lot of people are expressing.

The uniforms looked very similar to US military circa Bay of Pigs era. Maybe that lends credence to NATO, maybe Aussie or other uniforms were similar at the time, I don't know as much about foreign military uniforms.

At first, I also thought that the soldiers were different from the archers, but I'm pretty sure I also saw some of those guys with flaming arrows in the previews, so I'd have to go back and get another look.

I think the whole Dharma/Hostiles conflict that has been mentioned before could be being set up here. Either way, I buy into an Atomic Test Era timeline for these guys, as there was a lot of atoll exploration going on then.

Maybe the military guy couldn't "nail" the accent himself, so it comes out as a New Braustrealand accent. My vibe is military unit, from the past going all Lord of the Flies on their island (in a war, anyplace is better than at the front). I figure Charlie Widmore might be in that bunch and maybe ascends to Lord Fly. My island now. Plenty of stories of guys washing up on islands and deciding that's a better place to be than back in the war. Plenty.

Also, lost atomic unit-I'm down with that. Makes good sense since we detonated there and all. I mean, it is an event that definitely put's allied troops in the South Pacific. Entirely feasible, and then they discover that our island is better than your army and intend to stay.

I've always assumed that military types have washed up on the island before, because it explains Tom Friendly having a Luger, the Mauser and the grease gun the Other's were carrying after the purge, the pineapple grenade Patchy had. All of this is WW2 era stuff. Tom Friendly got's a Luger. The Losties got's a Baretta. Do the (time) math on that one.

So I assumed the Other's might have been grabbing whatever they found on the island to bolster their defenses. Apparently, they hadn't discovered any modern weaponry yet but who's to say they don't get ahold of some of those Enfield 303's them army boy's got...Which means I'll now have to go check the screencap of after the purge to see if the Mauser type rifle the Other is carrying is in reality an Enfield...

Oh Hells yeah: Bows and arrows fersure, out of ammo sooner or later. I would think that spears and pikes should be allowed also. Flaming arrows to show that they are firemasters and to intimidate (Thanks Prometheus!). And they light the battlefield much like flares would, no? Militarily prepared all the way, sir....

Private army possibly, but if so, who's the freakin' CO of this crazy a55 unit (Heart of Darkness/Apocolypse Now anyone?). If they are private military to protect the DI, or even the island until the DI can be set up, well then what has made them go all Lord of the Flies with no military discipline or decorum whatsoever. Hacking off limbs and claiming it as their island.

The hacking off of limbs is always considered bad mojo in circumstances of war see: Rwanda/Vietnam...etc.etc. So I think that's designed to show us that these soldiers have broken down morally and are no longer governed by any code. Again, very Lord of the Flies. Have they been seduced by whatever they've seen and experienced on the island to stage a coup and claim it as theirs? After all, it was Chairman Mao who said "Power comes from the barrel of a gun".

Neil/Frogurt (Aawon Buww...Aawon Buww! Aawon Buww!...(Aaron Burr)--Got Milk?) wished for fire and you should be careful what you wish for cause he got it in spades yessireebob, in spades I say...(<>..<>)

I lightened the 3 photos from Dark UFO's site. I don't see any logos on them, or any other insignia besides name patches.

Here (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2815/63165313ix8.jpg) here (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1364/96384450jq9.jpg) and here (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2711/92954470cm1.jpg).

They look like typical Viet-Nam era Army uni's. the accents certainly sound English, but other say it's Aussie or Kiwi's; not sure it matters. The M1 rifle was used in Viet-Nam and beyond since it was so reliable, much better than the early M-16's.

I'd guess that they were 'mercenaries' of that era 1970's that Widmore hired to protect his Construction Co. as they built the hatches, village etc. from the "Hostiles/Others/Richard's group; that Dharma later took over. The soldiers don't have any Army arm patches that i could see.

We know Widdie likes to hire merc's already. I don't think that was Widdie himself, but one of his hires. Could be a foundation to finally connect Widdie with Hanso who likely paid for the first development of the island.

The key is Widmore's comment to Ben when he is in his bedroom "Everything you have was mine".

"Since they wanted to hack of Juliet's hand, could these people be the ones who chopped off Candle's and Monrand's arm?"
Sound very likely, and a great catch! :) If so, would mean they overlapped with Dharma at some point.

Q? did we see Candle with both hands last night?

I think that what we'll end up seeing is that the army (british, us, aussie...NATO lets call em) shows up to do nuclear testing in the south pacific, and that widmore is part of that group. Problem is, that they didn't know about the Hostiles...and they've been attacking the Army since they got there. And it being the island, the army is cut off from the outside world.

Hey this sounds like a 'spoiler'? since most of us know what next week is about.

p.s. don't forget about the WWII era knife that Ana killed Goodwin with. So maybe the soldiers do go back at least to the 50's and early nuke testing?
If so, that would make it tough for the guy to be Widmore, who looks to be in his early 60's?

Hey! wait a minute? Couldn't this all mean that these 50's era soldiers ARE the Others? Alpert was seen in the late 50's visiting a boy-Locke. The O's have all these era guns and knives. They just keep recruiting more guys to add cuz they can't have kids.

When I first saw them I thought they were Australian WWII infantry that could have gotten on the island during the war. The station was active during that time - broadcasting the numbers that were picked up from the listening post in Australia... That would also explain the M1 rifles IF those were issued to Australian units in the Pacific Theater. I dunno that much about military history...


I concur. I took the accent as Australian or maybe kiwi.

After the Flaming Arrows i was expecting those people to be more primitive! i mean c'mon flaming arrows are pretty primitive, so when they showed up in uniforms and had guns i was surprised, but if you pay close attention to some of the previews you can get a glimpse of what looks like "The Army" with bows and arrows! This "Army" is definitely pre-Dharma, i would be willing to guess that the time period is mid 50's or early 60's...or way earlier! WHO KNOWS???

i don't think the flaming arrows came from the army boys
but another group

Maybe Widmore was connected to Leonard's team?

Leonard Simms, from Santa Rosa?
He was U.S. Navy.

I'm not sure what country the troops are from but I believe that they were the ones on the submarine. I guess somehow they ended up on the island years ago and have been there since. I don't think they are connected to Whitmore...unless he was one of the troops and escaped off the island..thus explaining how he knows about the island.

i don't think the flaming arrows came from the army boys
but another group
the Losties are skipping to different times in the history of the Island.
I'm liking my idea that we're seeing the 'de-evolution' of the Others. the army boys later become Others men, who as was pointed out before me, at some point run out of ammo, and/or want people to think they are 'primitive natives', similar to how they appear as pirates to the Losties at first..

Re the accent, the casting call for that character specified an age, a nationality, and an accent:
British, in his late teens. Despite being rough around the edges, mature well beyond his age and extremely smart. Must have English accent.

I think I saw three guys, Jones and two man. Jones and one of the guys got knocked out, while third guy was killed by Locke. Something tells me there's more of them, and they are at war with who ever shot those arrows. Based on Lostpedia, they are wearing WW2 uniforms, so could the survivors be back to 1940's. Or are those just old uniforms. The only person that I know who has ties to WW2 is Alvar Hanso.

Well, I think it's probably the Army guys devolving militarily (and morally) shooting the arrows, but could the Other's have fired those arrows and the Lefties are just kinda getting caught in the crossfire of some of their night skirmishes? Still, gotta go with the Army boys for now, that's how they would think-Be Prepared.

But if their private army mercs, well they might not be the most considerate of gents, hence their treatment of "prisoners". Or if real military, well they seem a bit edgy and paranoid, but they are in a fight with a crafty indigenous hostile tribe. Still, if real military the rules seem to be breaking down fast. They're going all Apocolypse now and all..

Could this be the Dharma invasionary force meant to secure the area needed for the DI? Widmore's contribution to the project--suipplying the muscle to get a foothold on the island against the indigenous hostiles...

But somewhere in my head I keep hearing the song "Walk like an Egyptiannnnnn"...Is it possible they could meet the real primitives during one of these shifts? I wonder...(<>..<>)

I would make the assertion that Widmore is, or was, part of this group. I found him to be a very much more 'human' character in these two episodes, and so would steer away from him being an omniscient being on the level of Jacob.

Accent sounded British to me and very similar to Widmore's. I thought that Jones could possibly be Widmore as a young man. But why the name difference?

Accent sounded British to me and very similar to Widmore's. I thought that Jones could possibly be Widmore as a young man. But why the name difference?
The answer to that is simple, if Jones is Widmore they don't want that information that a young Widmore is on the island. They often send out different names for characters in casting calls to avoid spoilers leaking out. It's not anything plotwise just to keep us from getting the information before the episode airs.

If Jones is Charles Widmore, this would put him close to that age.

I, however, don't feel that that is Charles Widmore. I definitely feel that Widmore is their boss and that this is shortly after Widmore has taken control of the island. I like to think of these men as the 1st Freighter crew.

Just a theory, poke holes in it if you like.

Close to what age, though? Could Widmore have been essentially immortal while on the island, like RA? But once kicked off the island, started to age? We don't know yet how that immortal stuff works.

i am thinking 40's 50's. somewhere around there
English accents i am pretty sure
to the best of my knowledge we have seen nothing about people from this time frame on the island
no clues as to how they arrived there.
but they said it was "their island" which in my mind says that they came there on purpose and did not simply crash there.

but i found them to be one of the most intriguing parts of the episode.

My thoughts:
1. Fiery Darts = Hostiles, and kuddos to them for going ... native ... with their weaponry
2. Gun Guys = WWII, either British or Australia or thereabouts--guns are older than 1970s
3. We are going to find out Hanso ties into all of stuff connected to the Island especially ... weapons ... since we've been shown that our nice tropical paradise has lots of "interesting" things about it that might make a person like Hanso very, very, very wealthy.

And how ironic was it that the army guy threatened the female in order to get the male to talk AND STILL was going to cut off Juliet's hand AFTER Sawyer agreed to talk, not that he could have explained anything, but still, he says that he'll talk, and the army guy wants to hack away at Juliet anyway.

This may have been posted but here goes, I think the others were behind the arrow attack, the island judging from the fifties era military garb the island flashed to the fifties and a pre 815 era island. So, kind of ironically it's before the others learned the hard way not to mess with the losties.

I wonder why are they so hostile. Almost intantly they were going to chop Juliet's arm off. Ethan almost killed Locke without find out more. Any connection? Maybe Ethan is part of Jones's team, but just not seen. Like, I said, there is probably more oh these guys than just three.

Seems to me that the military men were pretty freaked out by the appearance of Sawyer and Juliet. This may not have been the first encounter with "others" in their time on the island.

Seems to me that the military men were pretty freaked out by the appearance of Sawyer and Juliet. This may not have been the first encounter with "others" in their time on the island.
There you get into the whole everyone is an other depending upon your perspective. But I think those guys are from the same group of Others we've come to know and love the island just flashed to a pre-815 time period. As to why they wore military uniforms, the others seem to be in the habit of taking the equipment of groups they go up against after defeating them and using it for their own purposes.

I think the flaming arrow people and the hand-choppers are different groups. Just a hunch, nothing to back that up.

I also think the army guys are English, not Dharma.

I *love* the idea that the one guy is young Widmore! I hadn't thought of that previously.

Whose to say what else is going on around the island. It's a huge piece of land and all sorts of events could be taking place on a consistent loop all over the place. Can't wait to see how this scene will be explained. Please don't let it fall by the wayside!

In my untrained observation/opinion, I believe the army is Scottish, perhaps from the 40s?? And I think that somehow Widmore is involved...maybe he was one of the soldiers??

When I first saw them I thought they were Australian WWII infantry that could have gotten on the island during the war. The station was active during that time - broadcasting the numbers that were picked up from the listening post in Australia... That would also explain the M1 rifles IF those were issued to Australian units in the Pacific Theater. I dunno that much about military history...


Australia is the key to the whole game!

Australia is the key to the whole game!

OH yeah!! I keep forgetting about Australia. That's where The Numbers originally came from, right?? Didn't the dude in the mental institution say he heard them via wire transmissions in the Australian military? Or something like that? (Man, S1 seems so long ago. LOL!)

in another thread someone thought the accent was austrailan or south african.

i think since they appeared after mr eko's plane crashed but before the losties, i'm thinking it may have been some of widmore's people or others that had crashed on the island, but they had been eliminated by ben's group.

I was pretty sure it was supposed to be a young Widmore, I think last season when Ben visits him he calls it "My Island". He sure seemed territorial in this part as well..

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

I don't think the army guys were shooting the arrows. I believe that our Losties jumped into a very unfortunate time and found themselves in the middle of a war between the army guys and the arrow shooters (hostiles).

Oh I didn't have that perspective. Seems most people agree. Interesting.

I have to say, I thought the accent was quite obviously British. Didn't sound anything Australian, Kiwi, or S. African. But I've only watched once, and I won't read the spoiler box telling me the answer. :smile:

I think they may have been British. It would back my theory up that these guys are (were) working for Widmore
100%
I think they are british. I also think they are working for widmore

When the guy said he was going to chop off her hand, I immediately thought of Pirates. Punishment then ask questions.

Just throwing this out there, but what if they WERE pirates.
Pirates from the Black Pearl who FOUND the army jackets. maybe they were in hiding for some reason.
If they were pirates, it would explain why the flaming arrows were coming.
It would be because arrows and pirates might be in the same timeline, instead of primitive warriors vs. army men.

Like I said, just throwing it out there.

Me too but I just saw the scene on the westcoast feed and they seemed to be a darker colour then the DI suits, I think they are Rousseaus team, they did seem a little crazy after all.

I immediately thought of Rousseau's team. The rifle looked quite similar to the one she carried (though she could have found it at some future time after this team).

I immediately thought of Rousseau's team. The rifle looked quite similar to the one she carried (though she could have found it at some future time after this team).
She and her group of 6 came from Tahiti and she was French or Belgium or something, and came much later on, about 1988 (2004-16 yrs.)

Alien and i seem to agree (sort of, now he'll say no way)...but here's my summary so far.

Soldiers were Mercs hired by Alvar Hanso, about 1950's era. (may have included Widdie, but i don't think so, he could be their Captain, not seen yet). I think next week will shed a lot more light on all of this. We already know why they were there in the first place.(next week's)

I like his idea that they went to Lostia first to clear the island of "Hostiles" so Widmore Construction could build all those hatches, barracks etc. in safety. It's pretty cetain that his Co. did that....maybe was his Dad's, he inherits it.

For reasons unknown (the sickness?) they de-volve and join with the Original Others, led by Alpert. I still go with the idea that the Others have been around forever..were the immortal 4-toes, then recurited some of the BR's, then the merc's..later they go off island and hire people, including Dr.Juliet, and Mikal the Russian soldier, etc., under the fake banner of Dharma.

Could the hands they take create a constant for that person; fixes them in that time?

Remember that the Losties lost all their guns in one of the time skips? that may have happened to the Others at the same instant...thus they shoot arrows instead. when the attack happened the Losties still had no camp or supplies back.

I'm sure it was the Others that attacked, which were the soldiers, which were the BR's descendants, on and on....

The men man who ordered them to cut off Juliet's hand was English, and all of them were members of the Dharma Initiative.
In response to why are they so mean...
In season three (I can't remember the episode name) the one where it explores Ben's backstory on the island, well an alarm goes off and all the Dharma Initiative members grab guns in order to protect themselves. I don't think "the hostiles" tried to kill any of the DI at all, but it was the DI who wanted the island for themselves. So perhaps it was all because they were power hungry?

The men man who ordered them to cut off Juliet's hand was English, and all of them were members of the Dharma Initiative.
In response to why are they so mean...
In season three (I can't remember the episode name) the one where it explores Ben's backstory on the island, well an alarm goes off and all the Dharma Initiative members grab guns in order to protect themselves. I don't think "the hostiles" tried to kill any of the DI at all, but it was the DI who wanted the island for themselves. So perhaps it was all because they were power hungry?

What makes you so sure the soldiers are Dharma? Their army uniforms pre-date the time of the Dharma Initiative. As far as the DI having guns, well it seemed pretty obvious that the Others were acting hostile towards them. Why else would the Others try to get past the security fence or kill all of the DI or kidnap the Losties or kill the Losties if they interfered with their plans. The Others may have their own agenda and reasons but they are definitely hostile.

Just remember how mean the Tail Section became.

Could the soldiers who caught Juliet and Sawyer and the group that sent the flaming arrows be one in the same? I think they're pre-meeting the losties others because the 2004 era others seemed to reach a truce with the losties. The flaming arrows did seem primitive but we've seen the others pretend to be uncivilized and stoneage when actually being modern and possessing technology.

Raven said that the white tape with the names on the uniforms kind of dated them.

Let's see what google has to say.

http://www.thortrains.net/page7.htmThis is US Military

http://books.google.com/books?id=paTolFtLi28C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=military+white+name+tapes+1960&source=web&ots=VdkK_kR_C1&sig=_tEGK2g6J7Zi5i9Qtp6FcLDsZJ8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

British soldier (http://www.worldwartwobooks.com/product.php/5391/battledress-1939-1960-british-soldier-in-the-20th-century-series-)

Australia (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/australian-17.htm)

Also, in the beginning of this thread someone said that Anna-Lucia killed Goodwin with the U.S. Army knife, she didn't he fell on the stake.

http://www.combatreform2.com/paratrooper.htm

http://www.militaryclothing.com/IBS/SimpleCat/Product/asp/hierarchy/0L/product-id/26140779.html - Geronimo - The US Airborne in WWII

I immediately thought of Rousseau's team.
I too have the same theory about them. They sound British, but so does someone who is French who speaks English that was taught in school...

I too have the same theory about them. They sound British, but so does someone who is French who speaks English that was taught in school...

I don't know where you meet your English speaking French people but I have yet to have met one in the U.S. or Europe who sounded British.

I don't know where you meet your English speaking French people but I have yet to have met one in the U.S. or Europe who sounded British.
Well, it was a stupid idea. I own up to it. Not one of my better ones... :undecide:

Well, it was a stupid idea. I own up to it. Not one of my better ones... :undecide:

Well, half the fun of posting here is jumping to crazy conclusions. :)

Well, half the fun of posting here is jumping to crazy conclusions. :)
I think that for every theory that I've totally nailed and gotten right, I've had about 50 theories that totally bombed! But you know, the fact that I could mind-meld with the writers of Lost occasionally, and was somehow able to figure something out that was the way it turned out in the series - those times are so rockin! They make up for all the times I was completely wrong.

I'm not sure who Jones, Cunningham and Mattingly are, but the haircuts, uniforms and M1 say 1950's to me. There's Goodwin's knife, and oh, that obscure Civil Defense logo on a case in Rousseau's camp that might connect with that timeframe.