Ok so I understand why Desmond didn't remember meeting Faraday in the hatch, because it was technically happening in the present and then the memory was suddenly "implanted" into Desmond's head. But, why didn't Desmond remember Faraday from the time they met in "The Constant"?

Daniel clearly remembers Desmond as he wrote in his journal that Desmond was his constant, plus it seems that Desmond gave Dan the numbers he needed to make his time machine work. So wouldn't it stand to reason that Desmond should remember Faraday when he sees him at the hatch?

Don't ask:rolleyes: it's time travel does it ever make sense. btw I have no idea

Don't ask:rolleyes: it's time travel does it ever make sense. btw I have no idea

Well the current situation with Desmond is making sense to me, and the fact that he would suddenly remember, but the first time they met it seems like Desmond sort of changed the future, since the rules don't apply to him, but it doesn't explain why he doesn't recognize Dan.

He had a vague recognition of him, which is why he asked if he knew him. But the dominant consciousness we followed during the constant, as far as I could tell, was modern Desmond. So while 1996 Desmond does, on some level, have memories of going to Oxford, etc, it's likely a blur and he simply wrote it off as a weird experience. Had Daniel confirmed that Desmond did know him and fill him in on the details, a paradox would have been created, or that Desmond would have just thought Daniel was crazy and shot him. Since paradox CAN'T happen, there's no way Desmond could have made the connection that he knew him, and Daniel's quick response of "No...no." put a stop to that line of thought.

when he said you cant change history...i wonder how strong that arguement is...maybe Desmond was going to come out at that time for some reason, so its not like it changed anything. uhh
hmmm what ugh huh i have no clue

He had a vague recognition of him, which is why he asked if he knew him. But the dominant consciousness we followed during the constant, as far as I could tell, was modern Desmond. So while 1996 Desmond does, on some level, have memories of going to Oxford, etc, it's likely a blur and he simply wrote it off as a weird experience. Had Daniel confirmed that Desmond did know him and fill him in on the details, a paradox would have been created, or that Desmond would have just thought Daniel was crazy and shot him. Since paradox CAN'T happen, there's no way Desmond could have made the connection that he knew him, and Daniel's quick response of "No...no." put a stop to that line of thought.

Ahhhh, no you're right. I totally forgot that modern Desmond went to the past, and past desmond went to the present. So...past Desmond's body met Faraday, but the consciousness was future Desmond. Past Desmond (while on the freighter) only talked to Faraday on the phone, so he wouldn't have any recollection of how he looked, and wouldn't have recognized him at all, and it is doubtful that he remembered Faraday's voice.

No, the consciousness in 'The Constant' was definitely PAST Desmond - if it was future desmond he would have recognized Sayid and known he was on an island. Past Desmond's consciousness was travelling back and forth.

there was no point in 'present day' where Desmond did not know who Daniel was AFTER having met him in the past - he did not talk to him again, remember.

No, the consciousness in 'The Constant' was definitely PAST Desmond - if it was future desmond he would have recognized Sayid and known he was on an island. Past Desmond's consciousness was travelling back and forth.

there was no point in 'present day' where Desmond did not know who Daniel was AFTER having met him in the past - he did not talk to him again, remember.

Ok right again lol, my mind is working overtime here since I just had a season 4 marathon the past couple of days. I knew that the consciousness on the boat was past Desmond, but I mistakenly thought past and present consciousnesses switched, when in reality past Desmond shifted from past to present.

So in that case since past Desmond met Faraday at Oxford, he should still remember him when they meet outside the hatch.

I watched it again too recently..but the reason I say it was present day desmond was because that was who we followed, narratively speaking. It's definitely a matter of interpretation and one that probably won't be cleared up for a while, but I got the sense that present Desmond jumped and mistakenly thought he was past Desmond. If you look at it from the point of view that we followed "our" Desmond the entire time, the initial jump was back to when he said he had a dream of being on a helicopter, etc, then we followed him back and forth and saw the consciousness we were following get resolved and 'remember' everything when he contacted penny in the future. This was juxtaposed by a shot of past Desmond walking away from Penny looking concerned, and then all of a sudden he smiled and relaxes, but the consciousness on the boat, the same one that did not recognize Sayid or his surroundings, all of a sudden was at peace as he told Sayid it was enough.

Again, it's all a matter of perception but it was my feeling that past Desmond's consciousness was being invaded by a confused present Desmond.

LOL: "At least it was a BLOODY MILITARY DREAM"

Ok right again lol, my mind is working overtime here since I just had a season 4 marathon the past couple of days. I knew that the consciousness on the boat was past Desmond, but I mistakenly thought past and present consciousnesses switched, when in reality past Desmond shifted from past to present.

So in that case since past Desmond met Faraday at Oxford, he should still remember him when they meet outside the hatch.


Yeah, desmond should have recognized Faraday, as far as I can figure.

I watched it again too recently..but the reason I say it was present day desmond was because that was who we followed, narratively speaking. It's definitely a matter of interpretation and one that probably won't be cleared up for a while, but I got the sense that present Desmond jumped and mistakenly thought he was past Desmond. If you look at it from the point of view that we followed "our" Desmond the entire time, the initial jump was back to when he said he had a dream of being on a helicopter, etc, then we followed him back and forth and saw the consciousness we were following get resolved and 'remember' everything when he contacted penny in the future. This was juxtaposed by a shot of past Desmond walking away from Penny looking concerned, and then all of a sudden he smiled and relaxes, but the consciousness on the boat, the same one that did not recognize Sayid or his surroundings, all of a sudden was at peace as he told Sayid it was enough.

Again, it's all a matter of perception but it was my feeling that past Desmond's consciousness was being invaded by a confused present Desmond.

LOL: "At least it was a BLOODY MILITARY DREAM"

Hmm...possibly. Obviously I'm not quite sure on my point of view either as I've flip flopped several times already lol. So just to clarify you think that we were watching present day Desmond in the past, and past Desmond in the future?

Farraday couldn't remember the cards that Charlotte dealt...

Farraday was doing experiments without any head protection from the radiation, so he got a blast as much as Desmond did from turning the key.

as a result, they can bend the rules of time but they forget things as a result. kinda like the "swiss cheese brain" theory in Quantum Leap.

Farraday couldn't remember the cards that Charlotte dealt...

Farraday was doing experiments without any head protection from the radiation, so he got a blast as much as Desmond did from turning the key.

as a result, they can bend the rules of time but they forget things as a result. kinda like the "swiss cheese brain" theory in Quantum Leap.

Possibly, though I think Desmond was exposed to Electromagnetism. And Faraday did remember 2 out of 3 cards. Until they explain it as being the swiss cheese brain theory I still think he should have remembered him.

Hmm...possibly. Obviously I'm not quite sure on my point of view either as I've flip flopped several times already lol. So just to clarify you think that we were watching present day Desmond in the past, and past Desmond in the future?

No, I think the only real glimpse of Desmond's 1996 consciousness we saw in the entire episode was after Desmond spoke to Penny on the phone and he was walking away. The reason for this is whenever Desmond jumps back to 96, 2004 Desmond (Minkowski did this too) passes out and/or goes into a fugue state. EVERY time. Initially, 1996 Desmond was able to get from his barracks to outside doing situps, but that's not something we witnessed him do. We see him come back to the boat every time. There's a few times that happens, and it's not until the episode had progressed that we saw 96 Desmond start to lose consciousness when the switches occur.

Initially 96 Desmond was fully operational, but 04 would pop in here and there. Only as things got worse do we see 96 Desmond passing out, the first time being when he was reaching for the change he dropped in the phone booth, then in the stairwell, then in Daniel's office. Having been in the army, believe me..if everyone else was doing situps and he wasn't, the seargent would have noticed immediately, and if he was unconscious, he would have woke up in an army medical center. Especially considering that 5-10 minutes in 04 was equivalent to over an hour in 96. So I think initially 04 was the jumper, and the more he jumped the more his brain in both 04 and 96 began to consider himself one person, which is why 96 began passing out, but not until the phone booth.

No, I think the only real glimpse of Desmond's 1996 consciousness we saw in the entire episode was after Desmond spoke to Penny on the phone and he was walking away. The reason for this is whenever Desmond jumps back to 96, 2004 Desmond (Minkowski did this too) passes out and/or goes into a fugue state. EVERY time. Initially, 1996 Desmond was able to get from his barracks to outside doing situps, but that's not something we witnessed him do. We see him come back to the boat every time. There's a few times that happens, and it's not until the episode had progressed that we saw 96 Desmond start to lose consciousness when the switches occur.

Initially 96 Desmond was fully operational, but 04 would pop in here and there. Only as things got worse do we see 96 Desmond passing out, the first time being when he was reaching for the change he dropped in the phone booth, then in the stairwell, then in Daniel's office. Having been in the army, believe me..if everyone else was doing situps and he wasn't, the seargent would have noticed immediately, and if he was unconscious, he would have woke up in an army medical center. Especially considering that 5-10 minutes in 04 was equivalent to over an hour in 96. So I think initially 04 was the jumper, and the more he jumped the more his brain in both 04 and 96 began to consider himself one person, which is why 96 began passing out, but not until the phone booth.

But in that case, if we only see 96 consciousness at the end of the episode, then that would mean that 04 consciousness was in the present as well, meaning he would have recognized Sayid and wouldn't have been so freaked out. I think that it was the 96 consciousness that was jumping the whole time. Hence why in the future (04) when Faraday asks him what year he thinks it is he says 1996. He talks to Faraday, gets instructions to go to Oxford, then when he jumps back to 1996 he remembers what he told him. I think anytime his consciouness jumps the other Desmond goes unconscious (correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't he pass out after they are doing the situps? Can't quite remember when the shifts take place)

That's why I think they have that shot at the end of the episode when 04 consciousness comes back, and 96 consciousness also goes back.

But in that case, if we only see 96 consciousness at the end of the episode, then that would mean that 04 consciousness was in the present as well, meaning he would have recognized Sayid and wouldn't have been so freaked out. I think that it was the 96 consciousness that was jumping the whole time. Hence why in the future (04) when Faraday asks him what year he thinks it is he says 1996. He talks to Faraday, gets instructions to go to Oxford, then when he jumps back to 1996 he remembers what he told him. I think anytime his consciouness jumps the other Desmond goes unconscious (correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't he pass out after they are doing the situps? Can't quite remember when the shifts take place)

That's why I think they have that shot at the end of the episode when 04 consciousness comes back, and 96 consciousness also goes back.

No, if I remember right this is how it came down. 04 is on the chopper. Jumps back to 96 to be awakened. At that point I think enough of 04s consciousness merged with 96's to think he was 96 and to fracture 04's memories. Once they're awakened, the seargent is in the middle of his sentence telling them to move their ***** out to the field, he's back in the chopper. The very next time he jumps back, he's drenched, in the middle of doing situps. Which meant while he was in 04, somehow his 96 body got dressed, went outside, fell in to formation, and then he pops back in from 04. That's when he's just standing around and he gets in trouble and the seargent makes him run. After that is the phone booth. There may or may not have been another shift in between him running, telling his buddy about the dream as they're loading the truck, and getting to the phone booth, but either way, there WAS a shift from when he was standing at the edge of his bunk in his underwear, and an unexplainable shift where he's fully dressed outside. That's why I'm thinking the 04 consciousness was the dominant one and was getting more and more confused, because the more he went back, the more the two consciousnesses were merging. The cause of death occurs when they're trying to get back to their actual present day bodies, evidenced when Minkowski opens his eyes in the radio room and says "can't...get...back..." Minkowski's present conscious knew he should be back in the boat, but his mind was unable to let go that he was just on a ferris wheel and it kills him. So the fact that Minkowski became conscious but "couldn't get back" and the fact that Desmond 96 got dressed and moved out to the parade field while Desmond 04 was being moved down to the infirmary both state to me that the present consciousness merges more and more with the past until the brain just can't distinguish between the two. But once contact is made with the constant (first done by 96 desmond) in both times, the consciousnesses split again to where they should be and the traveling stops. When Desmond took the phone from Sayid he was still confused, when he heard Penny's voice, there was no loss of consciousness, there wasn't even a beat. He was okay, and he knew where he was and everything that had happened. There was no shift of consciousness after 04 contacted Penny.

True, I forgot that he got dressed and went outside while Desmond was conscious in the future. I think you are right as It does seem like the two get merged. Weird though that Minkowski is normal in the future the entire time, as he remembers what happened to the boat, how he got "sick" etc, while Desmond does not remember anything.

However, I understood that last shot of 96 Desmond after the two consciousnesses apparently split, to be him realizing that the constant had worked, meaning that he probably remembered everything that had happened both in the present (96) and the future (04). So even if the two consciousnesses were merged, it seems like both the present and past Desmond's consciousnesses remember what happened after they split.

True, I forgot that he got dressed and went outside while Desmond was conscious in the future. I think you are right as It does seem like the two get merged. Weird though that Minkowski is normal in the future the entire time, as he remembers what happened to the boat, how he got "sick" etc, while Desmond does not remember anything.

However, I understood that last shot of 96 Desmond after the two consciousnesses apparently split, to be him realizing that the constant had worked, meaning that he probably remembered everything that had happened both in the present (96) and the future (04). So even if the two consciousnesses were merged, it seems like both the present and past Desmond's consciousnesses remember what happened after they split.


The difficulty with the second part is that if 96 remembered everything, then he would have come to the island with that foreknowledge. As for Minkowski, now that you mention it, it is rather strange, but it could be attributed to the level of electromagnetism Desmond was subjected to.

I'm in the '96 consciousness camp - if '04 Desmond had gone to the past, I feel like he would be much more confused. It seemed more like '96 Desmond was returning from the future - he seemed at home in the time period, not like he was pretending. He thought his experiences in 2004 were a dream, not reality.. am I making any sense?

The difficulty with the second part is that if 96 remembered everything, then he would have come to the island with that foreknowledge. As for Minkowski, now that you mention it, it is rather strange, but it could be attributed to the level of electromagnetism Desmond was subjected to.

True, but doesn't he already have foreknowledge of everything? Hence his flashes, and the episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes," Where he remembers everything that happened on the island, but he is living his life in the past. I always assumed that he was sent back to the past and lived his life over again with knowledge of what was going to happen.

So if he did remember Faraday then I guess technically he should have remembered him when they first met I believe at the helicopter before he left the island...Ok I guess it is making more sense that he probably doesn't remember Faraday otherwise he would have said something the first time (which was before the consciousness starting shifting) but that look that Desmond gives at the end of the episode in The Constant has always bugged me.
100%
I'm in the '96 consciousness camp - if '04 Desmond had gone to the past, I feel like he would be much more confused. It seemed more like '96 Desmond was returning from the future - he seemed at home in the time period, not like he was pretending. He thought his experiences in 2004 were a dream, not reality.. am I making any sense?

Ya makes sense to me, but enigma also makes sense when he says about Desmond still functioning in the past when 96 consciousness is in the future. Obviously 04's consciousness is never in 04 the entire time until the end of the episode, and you make a good case for it not being in 96 either (Desmond thinking it was a dream instead of being freaked out like 96 is in the future).

So either 96 consciousness is in both times at once, or 04 (which I don't think) takes over when 96 is in the future.

The Constant was 1996 Desmond's conciousness going into 2004 Desmond's body. He doesn't know where he is on the helicopter or freighter - he tells Faraday he thinks it is 1996 - he looks much older to himself in the mirror. The producers have explained all this. The fact that he doesn't seem to remember Faraday once he's on the island is either something that they've overlooked or will somehow hopefully explain - such as memory being affected by time paradoxes.

You've got to think about Desmond in the sense of him in the entirety of the series. Foreknowledge would mean that he would have never taken Kate hostage in season 2. She would have come down the hole and he would have said "hey what's up Kate? Tell Jack and John to come on down, oh and by the way, get all the food out of here you can because the hatch will be imploding here pretty soon." The flashes didn't start until he turned the failsafe key (and most likely actually did his first CTT).

As for him feeling at home in 96, he did because the moment he jumped from 04 back to 96, his consciousness began merging into a singular consciousness split between two bodies. Minkowski may have been the opposite. It's possible that he was the 04 consciousness the whole time, but was wrestling back in the past, and either one of those could be a result of the variation of the bearing. Let's say for simplicity's sake that Desmond shifted to a bearing of 324 when he passed through the barrier, that variation of time made him think it was 96, whereas Minkowski could have gone through 326, making him know it was 04, but still jumping back began the path to consciousness merging.

Edited: Ok with not knowing everything, you were posting as I was :P Personally I see a LOT more holes if it's the 96 consciousness than I do if it's the 04.

You've got to think about Desmond in the sense of him in the entirety of the series. Foreknowledge would mean that he would have never taken Kate hostage in season 2. She would have come down the hole and he would have said "hey what's up Kate? Tell Jack and John to come on down, oh and by the way, get all the food out of here you can because the hatch will be imploding here pretty soon." The flashes didn't start until he turned the failsafe key (and most likely actually did his first CTT).

As for him feeling at home in 96, he did because the moment he jumped from 04 back to 96, his consciousness began merging into a singular consciousness split between two bodies. Minkowski may have been the opposite. It's possible that he was the 04 consciousness the whole time, but was wrestling back in the past, and either one of those could be a result of the variation of the bearing. Let's say for simplicity's sake that Desmond shifted to a bearing of 324 when he passed through the barrier, that variation of time made him think it was 96, whereas Minkowski could have gone through 326, making him know it was 04, but still jumping back began the path to consciousness merging.

Edited: Ok with not knowing everything, you were posting as I was :P Personally I see a LOT more holes if it's the 96 consciousness than I do if it's the 04.

Ya the whole Flashes Before Your Eyes still confuses me but you have a point there. Was he essentially sent back for a brief amount of time in that episode then? Because he obviously remembers going to the island, and only decides not to change the future (ie asking Penny to marry him and not what he was supposed to do) when Mrs. Hawking tells him to. At what point does he shift back to the present?

As for the 96/04 thing, I'm still gonna have to say it was 96 the whole time. I think the whole nose bleed brain malfunction thing happens when you are conscious that you are skipping back through time. It seems to only happen to Desmond when he sees the calendar and realizes it's not 1996, but actually 2004.

The producers say in no uncertain terms on the S4 DVD special features that FBYE involves 2004 Desmond flashing back to the past (so of course he remembers his life on the island) but that The constant involves 1996 Desmond jumping into the future, (of which he of course knows nothing). We have to remember that we never see any hopping in FBYE--he's there for a few days, then he's back. In "The Constant" wherever 1996 Des's mind is, his body in the other time period is passed out, as Des was during the entire trip to the past in FBYE.

Cardie

The producers say in no uncertain terms on the S4 DVD special features that FBYE involves 2004 Desmond flashing back to the past (so of course he remembers his life on the island) but that The constant involves 1996 Desmond jumping into the future, (of which he of course knows nothing). We have to remember that we never see any hopping in FBYE--he's there for a few days, then he's back. In "The Constant" wherever 1996 Des's mind is, his body in the other time period is passed out, as Des was during the entire trip to the past in FBYE.

Cardie

Ok that makes sense for FBYE, but it doesn't for The Constant. When 1996 Desmond jumps to the future, at least at the beginning anyway, his body in 1996 still functions. He is definitely not passed out at the beginning because when his consciousness leaves he is in the baracks, then when it comes back he is doing sit ups in the rain as enigma pointed out.

So he had to get from point A to point B somehow. To my knowledge the first time he goes unconscious is after he leaves Faraday's on his way to Penny's, but I could be wrong.

I've been assuming that we don't see the duration of every jump and that he got to the sit-up area, started doing them, flashed to the future, during which time he was probably staring vacantly into space, and then became aware of where he was, sort of like petit mal epileptic seizures.

Cardie

I've been assuming that we don't see the duration of every jump and that he got to the sit-up area, started doing them, flashed to the future, during which time he was probably staring vacantly into space, and then became aware of where he was, sort of like petit mal epileptic seizures.

Cardie

Ya but again his drill sargeant/those around him would definitely have done something if he all of a sudden lost consciousness in the middle of doing sit-ups.

It's the same memory loss scenario that Daniel experiences. Since Desmond knows information about the future and this information could be used to change the future he looses his memory of it until a point in time in which the information will no longer change the past, only the future.

You can't change the past so I believe immediatly after Desmond and Faraday talk he forgets about it. Goes on with his life pushing the button, getting off the island, etc. then it "catches up" with him in the present.

Same with Faraday. He doesn't recognize Desmond when he first meets him despite having met him in the past and he seems surprised when opens his journal and sees "DESMOND HUME IS MY CONSTANT" as if he wrote it there during his earlier interaction with Des but it only appears in the journal at a specific moment in the present.

But Desmond did recognize Faraday. He even asked him if he knew him. It was similiar to the whole Desmond/Jack meeting on the island. Desmond recognized Jack, he just couldn't remember from where. Although after a short amount of time, he realized where he knew Jack from.

As to why Desmond did not remember everything about his time travel experience with Faraday the first time, I thought it was covered in FBYE. That once he jumps in time, his memories from the future slowly start to fade and become more of a dream than a memory. Remember when he jumped back in time how he could remember small things about the island but not everything. Makes sense.
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You can't change the past so I believe immediatly after Desmond and Faraday talk he forgets about it. Goes on with his life pushing the button, getting off the island, etc. then it "catches up" with him in the present.

Same with Faraday. He doesn't recognize Desmond when he first meets him despite having met him in the past and he seems surprised when opens his journal and sees "DESMOND HUME IS MY CONSTANT" as if he wrote it there during his earlier interaction with Des but it only appears in the journal at a specific moment in the present.


But they covered why Faraday won't remember their Oxford conversation. It was due to the radiation and Faraday having no protection for his skull. He was losing his memory, mas further backed up on the island with Charolette and the card game.

I am wondering why Desmond's memory took three years to catch up with him. Daniel "planted" the memory the day that the island disappeared. But Des does not "remember" it until three years after he left the island. Why wouldn't he "remember" it when he was on the raft, or on Penny's boat? Maybe Locke's death triggers events off the island? Dunno.

I am wondering why Desmond's memory took three years to catch up with him. Daniel "planted" the memory the day that the island disappeared. But Des does not "remember" it until three years after he left the island. Why wouldn't he "remember" it when he was on the raft, or on Penny's boat? Maybe Locke's death triggers events off the island? Dunno.


It seems to be that when Desmond travels through time, his memory gets all mushed up. Like in FBYE when he recognized Charlie, but it took him a minute to realize where he met Charlie from(the island). The same thing happened again in FBYE when he could only remember the island as a dream and it was fading. Same with the Constant.

I know Desmond wasn't time traveling here, but it seems when time travel does occur, it mushes up people's memories.


Or like Faraday says, the rules don't apply to Desmond. So where as everyone else is moving through time on a string, Desmond is different. He is jumping all over the place.

Another thing: didn't Desmond figure out there really wasn't a quarantine concern after he killed Kelvin, but when he met Daniel at the hatch door, he was fully decked out in hazmat gear. I think the long wait for the first episode has made me question every single detail and I'm thinking about unimportant, minute things.

One thing is for sure: Desmond's "specialness" is being exploited. He doesn't owe the Losties anything - he's finally with the love of his life - why does he feel he has to jeopardize that to save the Losties?

Another thing: didn't Desmond figure out there really wasn't a quarantine concern after he killed Kelvin, but when he met Daniel at the hatch door, he was fully decked out in hazmat gear. I think the long wait for the first episode has made me question every single detail and I'm thinking about unimportant, minute things.

One thing is for sure: Desmond's "specialness" is being exploited. He doesn't owe the Losties anything - he's finally with the love of his life - why does he feel he has to jeopardize that to save the Losties?


But remember even after Kelvin died Desmond was still injecting himself with the vaccine even though he had already been outside. More than likely Desmond was not sure that their was not a sickness out there, so that's why he wore the suit.


Also because like Penny says, Desmond is a good man.

One thing is for sure: Desmond's "specialness" is being exploited. He doesn't owe the Losties anything - he's finally with the love of his life - why does he feel he has to jeopardize that to save the Losties?

Desmond is the reason Oceanic 815 crashed in the first place.

The Constant was 1996 Desmond's conciousness going into 2004 Desmond's body. He doesn't know where he is on the helicopter or freighter - he tells Faraday he thinks it is 1996 - he looks much older to himself in the mirror. The producers have explained all this. The fact that he doesn't seem to remember Faraday once he's on the island is either something that they've overlooked or will somehow hopefully explain - such as memory being affected by time paradoxes.



This is the explanation right here. It is definitely 1996 consciousness, the only question is why desmond doesnt recognize faraday. its very possible that Darlton dont deem this important and have overlooked it. hopefully there IS some kind of explanation though

The Constant was 1996 Desmond's conciousness going into 2004 Desmond's body. He doesn't know where he is on the helicopter or freighter - he tells Faraday he thinks it is 1996 - he looks much older to himself in the mirror. The producers have explained all this. The fact that he doesn't seem to remember Faraday once he's on the island is either something that they've overlooked or will somehow hopefully explain - such as memory being affected by time paradoxes.



This is the explanation right here. It is definitely 1996 consciousness, the only question is why desmond doesnt recognize faraday. its very possible that Darlton dont deem this important and have overlooked it. hopefully there IS some kind of explanation though

Exactly, I don't think we have been given enough concrete evidence to assume why they didn't recognize each other. To say that Faraday's radiation was part of it, or they simply cannot remember because it gets pushed to a distant memory is speculation. I think this needs to be clarified further to be able to say for sure.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/February_28%2C_2008

Damon Lindelof explains that idea of this episode was hard to understand even for the other writers: Desmond's consciousness from 1996 is time-traveling forward to 2004 on the freighter. Desmond is so confused because he's a guy from the past who's supposed to be in a military camp. Carlton Cuse points out that it's easier to understand if someone travels back into the past, but in this episode someone from the past has traveled forward into the present.

How the show deals with time travel: the show is paradox-averse. When characters are time traveling, nothing that they do can change the present or the future that you have seen, which is different than on other shows. This is to make sure that what happens in the flash-forwards is "definitely not changeable" as far as time travel goes. Things like an alternate Jack in an alternate reality are not possible. Parallel futures or alternate universes that depend upon how certain actions play out are not the writers' intention. The Ms. Hawking scene in Flashes Before Your Eyes explains this principle.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flashes_Before_Your_Eyes
MS. HAWKING: Because it wouldn't matter. Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die. That was his path just as it's your path to go to the island. You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to.

Isn't it exactly what Daniel just did? Change the future by changing the past? :confused:

The Constant was 1996 Desmond's conciousness going into 2004 Desmond's body. He doesn't know where he is on the helicopter or freighter - he tells Faraday he thinks it is 1996 - he looks much older to himself in the mirror. The producers have explained all this. The fact that he doesn't seem to remember Faraday once he's on the island is either something that they've overlooked or will somehow hopefully explain - such as memory being affected by time paradoxes.



This is the explanation right here. It is definitely 1996 consciousness, the only question is why desmond doesnt recognize faraday. its very possible that Darlton dont deem this important and have overlooked it. hopefully there IS some kind of explanation though


but he DOES recognize Faraday. If you go back and watch the episode, as soon as he seems him, he says "Do I know you?"

Faraday tells Hatch Desmond how truly special he is - is Desmond somehow related to the original indigeous "people" of the island - the Richard Alpert clan? Is Desmond all or part Hostile and he doesn't know it?

Faraday tells Hatch Desmond how truly special he is - is Desmond somehow related to the original indigeous "people" of the island - the Richard Alpert clan? Is Desmond all or part Hostile and he doesn't know it?

That is what I was thinking... then I remembered that Alpert had to give Locke the compass so Locke could prove he knew Alpert from the future. If Alpert had the same ability as Desmond he would not be reminded... he would know.

I think the shots might have been something messing with Desmonds DNA. Only because of the scene where Juliet is working on DNA on her laptop and all the things about Genetics going on the island.

Desmond didn't recognize Daniel from 1996 because being unstuck creates memory loss... re Charlotte not remembering her mother's maiden name.

Daniel was lucky to have seen Desmond.. he is his constant.

This is really confusing with the pastdesmond/futuredesmond theories. I think Des doesn't recognize Faraday because the meeting happened when Desmond was locked away in the hatch. He was still wearing his chemical suit. Which is before the losties/freighter ever got to the island.

The way that I see it, Desmond in the future, off the island and with Penny, is happening at exactly the same time as Faraday visiting him in the hatch in the past.

If the time on the island(Where time is moving) and the time off the island (where Desmond and the Oceanic 6 are)were at a different times physically but at the same time mentally, then Desmond wouldn't have just 'remembered' that he'd met Faraday in the past, he would only be just experiencing himself meeting Faraday for the first time at that moment when he opens the hatch door.

It would explain why Desmond wouldn't have remembered meeting Faraday in the past because, if time all messed up, he hasn't!

A long, LONG time ago (after "Flashes Before Your Eyes") I theorized that while most people's lives are like a linear "string" that goes from start to finish, Desmond's life is a spiral that spins outward from the moment in his life when he turned the failsafe key. It is non-linear. From a fourth-dimensional perspective, time is not linear, and all moments in time are happening simultaneously. Therefore, when jumping to points in the past and future, he is the only person who is able to affect things.

When he traveled to Oxford in the past, he was writing new memories for himself. He didn't recognize Faraday on the Island because he had not met him yet from his own perspective. History had not been rewritten yet from his own non-linear, fourth-dimensional perception.

Past Desmond goes to the future, meets Faraday, and learns that he is time traveling between the future and the past. There is NO reason why Desmond shouldn't immediately recognize Faraday at the backdoor of the hatch. All of this "forgetting" stuff is just an out to explain away the messiness that they have created by introducing time travel.

I feel like I should take a physics class just to comprehend WTF is going on.:331:

...All of this "forgetting" stuff is just an out to explain away the messiness that they have created by introducing time travel.

Definitely, it's a way to avoid a lot of issues regarding paradox, but hey, it's a writer's perrogative to create their own universe, as it were... but if they have rules, I wanna understand what they are... and all of the answers we get are ambivalent.

imo, Desmond isn't special unto himself... but at the given moment Daniel was standing before the hatch... he believed there was no one else on the Island who could be used to send a message to the outside world, who would not create a paradox the universe would end up course correcting away (or not depending on your view at the moment).... 1. Daniel had met Desmond before 2001 (no paradox seeing Daniel again in the forward moving timeline) 2. Daniel believed Desmond may have made it to the outside world alive.

Past Desmond goes to the future, meets Faraday, and learns that he is time traveling between the future and the past. There is NO reason why Desmond shouldn't immediately recognize Faraday at the backdoor of the hatch. All of this "forgetting" stuff is just an out to explain away the messiness that they have created by introducing time travel.


except he DOES recoginze him. No, he doesn't come out and say, hey Daniel whats up, but he does say "Do I know you?" He recognizes him he just can't place it in the one minute they are together. Same thing happened with him and Jack in the Swan. Time travel does mess with your mind as shown in FBYE and The Constant. You can't remember everything like it happened, but you do remember stuff and Desmond did recognize Faraday, he just couldn't place it right away.

except he DOES recoginze him. No, he doesn't come out and say, hey Daniel whats up, but he does say "Do I know you?" He recognizes him he just can't place it in the one minute they are together. Same thing happened with him and Jack in the Swan. Time travel does mess with your mind as shown in FBYE and The Constant. You can't remember everything like it happened, but you do remember stuff and Desmond did recognize Faraday, he just couldn't place it right away.

Ya I had totally forgot that he said "Do I know you?" when he opens the hatch. I'm guessing this is as much of an explanation that we're going to get. I guess it must mess with your head because I don't know about anyone else but if I suddenly traveled in time to 2004, then back to 1996, left the military to go meet with a scientist at Oxford where he shows you a time traveling rat, I think I would remember lol.

Ya I had totally forgot that he said "Do I know you?" when he opens the hatch. I'm guessing this is as much of an explanation that we're going to get. I guess it must mess with your head because I don't know about anyone else but if I suddenly traveled in time to 2004, then back to 1996, left the military to go meet with a scientist at Oxford where he shows you a time traveling rat, I think I would remember lol.


but it has been shown on 2 occassions, both with Desmond that when someone time travels their memory does not travel intact with them. Just like he could barley remember the island in FBYE.

but it has been shown on 2 occassions, both with Desmond that when someone time travels their memory does not travel intact with them. Just like he could barley remember the island in FBYE.

This is their "out" when it is convenient. I have a problem with this, because Desmond had no trouble remembering things in the Constant while jumping back and forth.

This is their "out" when it is convenient. I have a problem with this, because Desmond had no trouble remembering things in the Constant while jumping back and forth.


Well he never remebered the present. So I wouldn't say his memories were perfectly intact. Not to mention Faraday says time traveling causes you to not be able to tell which reality is the present and your mind becomes so lost, that is overloads.

Also in FBYE which predated the constant Desmond had the hardest time remembering the island and not just think it was some big dream.


I don;t see how its being used as an out so far.


Also I wonder now if they were even the sasme thing. Or if one was time travel and one was time shifting.

Well he never remebered the present. So I wouldn't say his memories were perfectly intact. Not to mention Faraday says time traveling causes you to not be able to tell which reality is the present and your mind becomes so lost, that is overloads.

Also in FBYE which predated the constant Desmond had the hardest time remembering the island and not just think it was some big dream.


I don;t see how its being used as an out so far.


Also I wonder now if they were even the sasme thing. Or if one was time travel and one was time shifting.


I see it as an out because in FBYE, like you've mentioned, Desmond has a hard time remembering that he was just on the Island. I'm going with your interpretation of it as 2004 Desmond jumping back in time, but I could have sworn that it was explained that he was "reliving" his past. In anycase, he can't really remember the Island that well until it eventually comes around. In the Constant, he is able to pass information between time periods and remember detailed instructions and numbers with no problem whatsoever. You'd think he'd remember Sayid, the guy from the future that helped him to call his exgirlfriend, even if it is 8 years until he meets him again. I think his encounters with Faraday are also a problem. He first met him as his 1996 self. He had significant interaction with this guy yet, he doesn't remember him (other than the "do I know you" comment) when he shows up to the door of the hatch on Island. He sees this guy disappear right before his eyes, but then several years down the road, when he meets him for the second time, he doesn't remember him at all.

I see it as an out because in FBYE, like you've mentioned, Desmond has a hard time remembering that he was just on the Island. I'm going with your interpretation of it as 2004 Desmond jumping back in time, but I could have sworn that it was explained that he was "reliving" his past. In anycase, he can't really remember the Island that well until it eventually comes around. In the Constant, he is able to pass information between time periods and remember detailed instructions and numbers with no problem whatsoever. You'd think he'd remember Sayid, the guy from the future that helped him to call his exgirlfriend, even if it is 8 years until he meets him again. I think his encounters with Faraday are also a problem. He first met him as his 1996 self. He had significant interaction with this guy yet, he doesn't remember him (other than the "do I know you" comment) when he shows up to the door of the hatch on Island. He sees this guy disappear right before his eyes, but then several years down the road, when he meets him for the second time, he doesn't remember him at all.


I wonder if it has anything to do with Desmond not on the time string Daniel was saying.

Or it could be the Constant was a time shift and FBYE was actual time trvael. Cause he never needed a constant in FBYE. Also he never jumped around in time.

It seems that so far we have seen 3 forms of time travel and none are the same. one you need a constant for. one you actually travel back in time via conciousness and the final one is you and your body shift/jump in time.


I don't think this is a cop out by the writers because they would have not had Desmond recognize Daniel. I mean it was made a point of reference because Daniel responded that Desmond knew him in a way. So it seems they put that in their for a specific reason.

I've read through different opinions here, and it seems that you guys are forgetting that it's TIME we are talking about. So there is no need to "function during his jump to the future" as no time passes in 1996 while he is in the future! He jumps forward, spends two seconds, one minute, one hour or whatever there, then he jumps back to the exact same spot where he left... or just a tiny bit later. He bends down to pick up the change from the ground... he jumps to he future, then when he comes back he is in the same position - only a few seconds had passed. Later he passes out when he jumps, but I don't think it is because he is spending time somewhere else, but because it's getting harder to come back. I don't think we have seen 2004 Desmond in the entire episode, only in the end when he recognises Sayid.

Minkowski is a different case, because it is his present, 2004 self that travels to the past. The writers said they made it that way to suggest that the effect was totally random...

This is why it's hard to understand that a 2004 encounter with Daniel by the hatch implants a memory in his brain in 2007... why then? It must be some other explanation why he only remembers it then, and not right after they left with the helicopter - Daniel's real time, or right then, when it happens for Him.

The rules don't apply to Desmond, that's what Daniel said. I wish I knew what he meant!

I see people continuously using the word 'string' for when Daniel was describing traveling through time, but lest I'm mistaken, he was using the word 'street', was he not? Even when I re-watched last night, I heart 'street'. This was when he was explaining to Sawyer et al. Was there another time he used string in his explanation?

Past Desmond goes to the future, meets Faraday, and learns that he is time traveling between the future and the past. There is NO reason why Desmond shouldn't immediately recognize Faraday at the backdoor of the hatch. All of this "forgetting" stuff is just an out to explain away the messiness that they have created by introducing time travel.

I completely agree. I don't see any reason why Desmond couldn't have remembered Faraday. Also, saying "Do I know you?", is not at all indicative of Desmond remembering Faraday.

The only way I could see an explanation for Desmond not recognizing Faraday is if it is later revealed that the '96 Desmond forgot everything he experienced in the Constant. And that memory loss could be due to the conciousness-jumping.

Well, he did forget Penny's phone-number, didn't he? '96 Des KNEW the number, and let's be honest, would you forget the number where you could reach your one true love?

But 2004 Des (or rather 96 Des in 2004) needed to procure that number again, so yeah, I'm guessing the universe course-corected it all out of his memory.

failsafe key use side effects...

Well, he did forget Penny's phone-number, didn't he? '96 Des KNEW the number, and let's be honest, would you forget the number where you could reach your one true love?

But 2004 Des (or rather 96 Des in 2004) needed to procure that number again, so yeah, I'm guessing the universe course-corected it all out of his memory.


I haven't seen the Constant in a while, but I thought it was 1996 Desmond that showed up at Penny's door in 1996 asking her for her number. He then jumps to 2004 with that knowledge to call her on Christmas Eve.

^^You are correct.

Cardie

I haven't seen the Constant in a while, but I thought it was 1996 Desmond that showed up at Penny's door in 1996 asking her for her number. He then jumps to 2004 with that knowledge to call her on Christmas Eve.

Yes. Exactly. But before the timejump, he DIDN'T know the number in 2004! He changed something. So probably the same goes for Faraday too.

As to why Desmond didnh't recognize Faraday some could be right and Desmond might have altered something through the events of The Constant or it could be that he'd been in the Swan for three years that's enough time to drive anyone insane, when Desmond was first introduced he wasn't exactly the sanest guy. Couple Desmond's mental state with the fact that the encounter was so brief he didn't recognize him. I thought I saw Desmond's eyes flash a kind of what are you doing here look as if he did recognize him but then neither man had time to say hey, I met you in 1996 what are you doing on the island? My question is, if the rules don't apply to Desmond will the left behinders start using him as a cosmic post it note.

Brings new meaning to "see you in another life, brother". Anyone remember all those to whom he's said this? Besides Jack...

My theory explains this perfectly, so far, although i'm not cocky enough to guarantee it.

Memory loss.

When you learn something about the future as the result of TT you forget the event so you can not use that information to change the future, it's all part of course correction, that is why Desmond did not remember Faraday from Oxford in 1996, it's the same time line, it always happened, it's just that Desmond can't remember it.

This is also why Faraday did not remember Desmond on the beach prior to their conversation on the sat phones in the Constant. I bet that the pages in his notebook are his attempt to remember the future, OR they only appear in the notebook in the future as he discovers them in the past, like in his Dharma days, he would find out about the orchid and write it down, because he knows he forgets it when it is relevant, so he cannot use the information.
100%
Yes. Exactly. But before the timejump, he DIDN'T know the number in 2004! He changed something. So probably the same goes for Faraday too.

He knew the number, he didn't remember it.

If he knew Penny's number when he was on the Chopper he would never have had to find Daniel to learn what to do, therefore Desmond would never be Daniel's constant, and may not have lived long enough to go back to the DI days to learn everything he knew about the DI, therefore never have been selected to go to the island in the first place.

Memory loss applies perfectly to all the CTT situations, it avoids many a paradox.

Here is a related theory of mine, about why Desmond is "special"

http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=105898

My theory explains this perfectly, so far, although i'm not cocky enough to guarantee it.

Memory loss.

Selective memory loss. Fail safe key use side effects, being special, course correcting, etc. are just terms that let them get away with doing things they shouldn't, like Demsond not remembering Faraday.

When you learn something about the future as the result of TT you forget the event so you can not use that information to change the future, it's all part of course correction, that is why Desmond did not remember Faraday from Oxford in 1996, it's the same time line, it always happened, it's just that Desmond can't remember it.

Desmond didn't TT to the future and meet Faraday. 1996 Desmond met 1996 Faraday. It would have just been a normal memory.

This is also why Faraday did not remember Desmond on the beach prior to their conversation on the sat phones in the Constant. I bet that the pages in his notebook are his attempt to remember the future, OR they only appear in the notebook in the future as he discovers them in the past, like in his Dharma days, he would find out about the orchid and write it down, because he knows he forgets it when it is relevant, so he cannot use the information.

I don't know what they are doing with the notebook, but whatever's written in there had to have been written in there prior to Faraday coming to the Island. The notebook should never change, just as the past should never change.



Memory loss applies perfectly to all the CTT situations, it avoids many a paradox.

It's certainly helping them avoid paradoxes but it cheapens the story by things like "oh, he just forgot meeting this person, but he can remember this from that meeting.."

This has probably been said before, but I'm too lazy to read the replies. lol
The way I see it, Desmond will only remember Daniel after the point in which he went back in time and met him. Hatch Desmond hasn't gone back in time yet, therefore he doesn't remember meeting him. Future/Present Desmond remembers meeting Daniel in the past because he has already gone back in time.
The same can be said for Daniel. Desmond's trip hadn't happened yet when Daniel arrived on the island, so he didn't remember meeting him in the past, and so on.

i'm just coming into this and haven't read any of the other posts, but this is what i'm thinking. when des saw daniel at the hatch, it was the first time that he had seen him in that time. desmond didn't remember daniel when he came from the helicopter because the time had not be messed with yet. i don't understand why they keep saying that you cannot change time. isn't daniel changing it when he bangs on the door?

i don't understand why they keep saying that you cannot change time. isn't daniel changing it when he bangs on the door?
Daniel explained this...sort of. He told Des that "the rules don't apply" to him, because he's special.