Something about the whole discussion about having to bury the bomb with lots of concrete made me think the original purpose of the Swan station may be the Jughead.

Sayid investigated the Swan and told Jack about how much concrete was there.

Kelvin may have been lying about electromagnetic properties to Desmond. Not to say the magnetic properties didn't exist but that they were not the REAL reason. Possibly magnetic properties thwarts the radioactivity? I don't know, not a scientist here. Kelvin did say when drunk that by turning the failsafe key that "all this" goes away.

Remember Kelvin was CIA or some such USA intelligence operative before becoming the button pusher. The bomb was certainly USA made.

Just wondering out loud.

I wonder if the shots were iodine of some sort.

Right, so maybe. Is it possible that an H-bomb could cause the hatch to IMPLODE? And not wipe out the whole island??

I initially thought the same thing. But then what exactly happened when Desmond turned the key? The bomb certainly didn't go off.

Perhaps we're missing a step--

what if the bomb is buried, explodes, causes an electromagnetic anomaly which the hatch is designed to relieve.

I forgot to add that maybe just maybe the failsafe key turning thwarted the bomb from going off and releasing the negative energy from below the Orchid. If an atomic bomb went off it would certainly rupture the entire island and release this energy and possibly destroy the earth.

The implosion was a fail safe to bury the Jughead even deeper and therefore safer under the island.

I thought The Tempest was where the Jughead bomb was buried. Would explain the radiation burns Goodwin had, the energy supply they were getting from the station and the reason Dan wanted to neutralize it, right?

I thought The Tempest was where the Jughead bomb was buried. Would explain the radiation burns Goodwin had, the energy supply they were getting from the station and the reason Dan wanted to neutralize it, right?
Goodwin had a chemical burn...not radiation burn

Ya we're definitely going to need someone with a science background here! lol. I know half-life has a lot to do with radioactive materials, so maybe after 50 years the radiation was depleted???

Yes I thought about the Tempest and the deadly chemical/gas it held. But that may have been built later in order to kill everyone on the island without destroying the island itself.

Deadly radioactivity can last for hundreds of years... poison gas can dissipate much more quickly.

But then again... it's worth thinking about. :)

Great show indeed.

will someone please merge all the H-bomb/Swan threads? there's like 4

Even if I'm wrong, I'm happy to see that some other people thought this as well. It'd be cool if this worked out somehow.

I don't think so. Electromagnetism is not the same as radiation. Plus, the Swan Hatch is in a jungle area. The Jughead appears to be on a small open plain next to a jungle.


P. S. Where's Vincent?

I don't agree. The bom may be a dead issue at this point. Apparently the natives or others did take Daniel's advice and buried the bomb. And just as Daniel had to convince the skinny chick with the M1 - this would indeed prevent any problems with it later and such was the case. Had the bomb exploded the whole island, much less the hatch, would be toast. All was going fine until the 70's and DHARMA show up and finally overpower the natives. At some point Widmore fits in here and leaves the island and joins DHARMA? But then why would DHARMA take over the island and then proceed to also put all their stations underground as well if they know a bomb was there? Other than for fallout and radiation protection, which coincides with hazmat suits and funky injections, I couldn't imagine another explanation.

Absolutely the first thing I thought of. I was actually pretty annoyed with the sudden appearance of the H-Bomb until Daniel thought of burying it. I absolutely think it was under the Swan at some point.

Nah-in the Lost video game, and I'll spoiler font this even thought the info is so old everybody probably knows this by now, but:

Dharma had built a gyroscopic type of reactor back there to, I guess, modulate the power emanating from the EM well under the Swan. I guess this is where the energy was stored until Desmond pushed the button and discharged it every 108 minutes.

does this have anything to do with the quarantine signs????? And the sickness? Dharma came to the island around 20 years after, right?
Also I still think that the swan was connected to the orchid....
100%
I have to do some research on H bombs but anyone knows if they produce high levels of electromagnetism? Whatever it was behind that concrete wall was very magnetic, remember?

Also, and I know it is not considered canon, but, according to Lost Via Domus (videogame)...

there is a (nuclear) REACTOR behind that wall.

OK. Let's think logically (or as logically as you can with Lost).

You have a giant, unstable H-Bomb hanging in it's tower. You want to MOVE this bomb to bury it? Heck no! Leave it where it is. Encase it with concrete like Faraday suggested.

Right, but a big, monolithic slab of concrete in the middle of nowhere might seem a bit suspicious, no? Someone might want to see what's in this slab of concrete, Especially if someone is looking for the bomb. So you disguise it.

As a giant, broken statue of a four-toed foot, maybe?

This could also explain why during the Purge the Swan was left alone. Not sure if Kelvin was in the Swan during the purge but it seems the Swan was spared the purge as far as we know to this point.

This could also explain why, when the fail safe key was enacted by Desmond, Ben seemed to have little to possibly a relieved reaction (on the dock with Michael). Ben may have known that by turning the fail safe key the island would no longer have the threat of nuclear destruction hanging over it.

It may even explain why Ben (while prisoner in the Swan hatch) wanted to make Locke believe that pushing the button did nothing. Ben may have wanted the fail safe key turned. He just didn't want to do it himself.

OK, excuse my ignorance about radiation, H-bombs, etc, etc, but wasn't the Swan built to release the build up of electromagnetic energy every 108 minutes, and that was why there was a ton of concrete? Because when the counter wound down and the key wasn't turned, everything metallic would fly to the concrete wall. So could an H-bomb cause this electromagnetic energy?

OK, excuse my ignorance about radiation, H-bombs, etc, etc, but wasn't the Swan built to release the build up of electromagnetic energy every 108 minutes, and that was why there was a ton of concrete? Because when the counter wound down and the key wasn't turned, everything metallic would fly to the concrete wall. So could an H-bomb cause this electromagnetic energy?

I'm nowhere near an expert on either magnetic nor radioactive properties but I do think that magnetic properties can pass through concrete (or any surface for that matter) but radioactivity can not. Not sure but just a guess.

So to me it seems the thick concrete of the Swan was not really a barrier to magnetism but probably something else. Maybe radiation?

The Jughead was not anywhere near where the Swan station is located. Why would they lug an unstable bomb across the island?

Exactly! That's the point I was trying to make.

Just because it was hanging from what looked like a water tower, doesn't mean it stays there. If I were Richard and the others, I would bury it as far away as I could from where I lived or where island secrets were.

The Swan is on the otherside of the island. If the Jughead Bomb was buried where the Swan eventually came to be buit, could the radiation leak be part of the quarantine and sickness threat that was told to those who manned it?

I don't think just a bomb's EM could cause whatever it was that was going on in the Swan, but with the unique properties of the island anyway, could Richard and the others inadvertantly buried the Jughead Bomb near something that magnified the bombs EM field? The DI come along and like all scientist with good intentions, proceed to dig and build at the sight of what they think is just a massive amount of electro-magnetism, not knowing, maybe until it was too late, that the jughead bomb was in the same vincinity.

Daniel did say do you have lead or concrete? We know they have concrete, the evidence was in the Swan where those walls were built. I think it's a possibility the bomb is/was buried near the Swan hatch.

I'm not an expert but if the bomb went off when the hatch blew, would an H-bomb destroy most the Island rather than create a little crater? Don't get me wrong I immeadiatly thought of the Swan as well, but I think there may be something more we've yet to see regarding the Bomb and how (if) it relates to the swan

The bomb might be related to the incident, and I'm sure will have a bigger part to play later, but no way was the EM disturbance that Desmond was discharging every 108 minutes the H-Bomb. People don't time travel when nuclear bombs go off ;)

The Jughead was not anywhere near where the Swan station is located. Why would they lug an unstable bomb across the island?

How do we know this? I wasn't all that sure where we were located in the episode.

It could be tied to the incident.

Richard and Company inadvertently bury the bomb near where the Swan will eventually be built. A place on the island that for whatever reason has strong EM properties. Chang and team start digging, experimenting in god knows what, they set the bomb off, it causes the hole in the EM damn Inman talked about.

With all the Electromagnetism already going on in the area of the swan, I bet the concrete and shielding was laid pretty thick. The bomb could have also been buried very deep. The Swan then becomes the finger in the damn.

How do we know this? I wasn't all that sure where we were located in the episode.
you are righ. For all we know they might have built the Swan on top of the bomb!!!!

I wonder if there is any connection between 'unique electromagnetic fluctuations and a buried H-bomb?

It could be tied to the incident.

Richard and Company inadvertently bury the bomb near where the Swan will eventually be built. A place on the island that for whatever reason has strong EM properties. Chang and team start digging, experimenting in god knows what, they set the bomb off, it causes the hole in the EM damn Inman talked about.

With all the Electromagnetism already going on in the area of the swan, I bet the concrete and shielding was laid pretty thick. The bomb could have also been buried very deep. The Swan then becomes the finger in the damn.

If they set the bomb off, as you suggested, there wouldn't be much of an island left. It is an H-Bomb, after all.

Nah-in the Lost video game, and I'll spoiler font this even thought the info is so old everybody probably knows this by now, but:

Dharma had built a gyroscopic type reactor to contain the EM until it was discharged every 108 minutes. Personally, I think some of this power was involved in cloaking the island by bending light via EM and when the station went down it made it one step easier to see the island like naomi did

So, I'm not sure if it played a part in the Swan hatch, buttttttttt, what would be the effect of radiation leakage onto an island that has "special and unique characteristics? Could the bomb, leaking radiation multiplied by the island's effects have been the actual origin of the EM well that Dharma discovered? BTW, that's totally speculating but with the way time folds over who knows what the ultimate fate of the bomb became?

Simple explanation: bury it in concrete and lead and don't sweat it cause it never goes off. But, what about the people who were radiated? Could this cause mutations in the Others which explains why they are so strong and fast? (They're Manimals who snap necks with blurry, speedy precision I'm tellin ya...That's my story and I'm sticking to it...)....(<>..<>)

P>S> I thought the bomb was a nice homage to the nuke in The Stand, since alot of the on-island island stuff has mimicked that book the most....
Hey Trashcan, where ya goin man...?

I'd like to add; the language used in the destruction of the Swan station was that it imploded. Nuclear bombs, to my knowledge, do not implode... they explode. Thus my reckoning that when the fail safe key was turned by Desmond the Swan imploded and sucked whatever was there deeper into the island. If the bomb was indeed secured at the Swan it too went much deeper and I hope... safer into the island where no one could ever reach it. This act would make the island safer.

If they set the bomb off, as you suggested, there wouldn't be much of an island left. It is an H-Bomb, after all.

Unless it was a dud or a partial detonation. Could be why so many of the escape tunnels were blocked off in the area of the swan. They collapsed from an underground explosion.

The effects would depend on the yield and success of the detonation. A “homemade” or poorly maintained bomb could be a dud, producing no explosive yield but resulting in the spread of radioactive material; or the device could “fizzle”, meaning a partial nuclear detonation. A fizzle device, yielding 0.01 KT, would have an impact much greater than the explosive that destroyed the Oklahoma City Federal Building in 1995.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/ehp/rp/factsheets/factsheets-htm/fs36nucwpdet.htm

Not saying it's a scenerio with out holes. Obviously the Swan imploded. If there was a bomb buried near it, under it, it didn't go off. I'm hoping the incident Candle talks about in the orientation video gets explained or revealed to us this year though.

Daniel did say do you have lead or concrete? We know they have concrete, the evidence was in the Swan where those walls were built. I think it's a possibility the bomb is/was buried near the Swan hatch.[/quote]

I have been thinking about that too. Why else would they call attention to having to bury the bomb, patching the hole with lead, and using concrete? It makes perfect sense as to why the one area of the Swan was all walled up, oh and what was it that Sayid said about it in one of the earlier seasons- something like- "The last time I saw anything like this...
Can anyone remember?

I'd like to add; the language used in the destruction of the Swan station was that it imploded. Nuclear bombs, to my knowledge, do not implode... they explode. Thus my reckoning that when the fail safe key was turned by Desmond the Swan imploded and sucked whatever was there deeper into the island. If the bomb was indeed secured at the Swan it too went much deeper and I hope... safer into the island where no one could ever reach it. This act would make the island safer.

Exploded, then imploded...How else to explain the hatch door flying out through the air and the crater? Those are signs of an explosion. Then there was a counter explosion causing an implosion. I figure the fail safe key was wired to a counter-explosive to seal the well in case of a blow-out. Same kinda thing with an oil rig blowout.

Now, if the bomb was buried deep enough, and the Em was starting to wail when Des decided to turn the key, then the failsafe could have been wired to the bomb and caused the underground explosion that capped the EM well. Maybe the EM somehow muted the effects of the blast somewhat, but still having enough of an impact to hurl the blast door through the air. The heavy heavy blast door. Or maybe the door got hurled because it was metallic and it rode the EM wave up and out. Either way, I can't rule out that the bomb was the fail-safe.

Maybe the bomb is the source of the EM while at the same time being the savior from the EM...

And another thing...Remember the electrical? map Sayid had of the island and the 20' tall tunnels that were indicated on that map? Scroll to the bottom of this article

http://www.lanl.gov/history/hbombon/weapontest.shtml

and check out the tunnels in the picture. I'd say that looks about 20' high, whattya think? Failsafe...failsafe indeed...(<>..<>)

I'd like to add; the language used in the destruction of the Swan station was that it imploded. Nuclear bombs, to my knowledge, do not implode... they explode. Thus my reckoning that when the fail safe key was turned by Desmond the Swan imploded and sucked whatever was there deeper into the island. If the bomb was indeed secured at the Swan it too went much deeper and I hope... safer into the island where no one could ever reach it. This act would make the island safer.

But wouldn't the force of pushing it deeper underground cause the bomb to explode?

Exploded, then imploded...How else to explain the hatch door flying out through the air and the crater? Those are signs of an explosion. Then there was a counter explosion causing an implosion. I figure the fail safe key was wired to a counter-explosive to seal the well in case of a blow-out. Same kinda thing with an oil rig blowout.

Now, if the bomb was buried deep enough, and the Em was starting to wail when Des decided to turn the key, then the failsafe could have been wired to the bomb and caused the underground explosion that capped the EM well. Maybe the EM somehow muted the effects of the blast somewhat, but still having enough of an impact to hurl the blast door through the air. The heavy heavy blast door. Or maybe the door got hurled because it was metallic and it rode the EM wave up and out. Either way, I can't rule out that the bomb was the fail-safe.

Maybe the bomb is the source of the EM while at the same time being the savior from the EM...

And another thing...Remember the electrical? map Sayid had of the island and the 20' tall tunnels that were indicated on that map? Scroll to the bottom of this article

http://www.lanl.gov/history/hbombon/weapontest.shtml

and check out the tunnels in the picture. I'd say that looks about 20' high, whattya think? Failsafe...failsafe indeed...(<>..<>):JC_goodpost:

But wouldn't the force of pushing it deeper underground cause the bomb to explode?


no, it would still cause it to explode, just some of the explosion would be under ground. also the magnification of the swan station does not make sense, niether does the release every 108 minutes. the h-bomb's radiation is finate. it is not infinante. after pushing the button so many times for 30 som odd years it would still not be building up at the same rate as when it first started.

I thought the opener in BYL explained the Swan. Chang said if they drilled a few centimeter deeper into the wheel chamber the energy would be released. So I thought they were drilling at the Swan hatch for similar reasons they were drilling in the Orchid and drilled to far by accident and created the need for a dampener and the button.

it was chernobyl" or something to that effect.

Yea, really leads you to think they had a lot of what we're going to see now mapped out.

edit: quote from Lostpedia, transcript from Everybody Hates Hugo

"The last time I heard of concrete being poured over everything in this way was Chernobyl."

The DI probably brought concrete in the 70's when they came to the island and built the stations, this is way before that.

The DI probably brought concrete in the 70's when they came to the island and built the stations, this is way before that.

Richard and the others bury it in concrete/lead in proximity with where the Swan will end up. Experiments go wrong, as they do when scientists have good intentions and it causes either a partial detonation of the bomb or a crack in it's concrete bed and a leak in it's radiation. Bomb's made out of metal, electromagnetic properties of the Swan being harnessed, I can see this causing fractures in whatever housing Ricahrd and Company put around it.

The DI sections off the part of the Swan station that closest to the bomb and affected by the radiation. Obviously the concrete isn't going to keep out magnetism. There has to be some major radiation going on on the other side of that wall.

I thought the opener in BYL explained the Swan. Chang said if they drilled a few centimeter deeper into the wheel chamber the energy would be released. So I thought they were drilling at the Swan hatch for similar reasons they were drilling in the Orchid and drilled to far by accident and created the need for a dampener and the button.

this dharma folks were so dumb!

no, it would still cause it to explode, just some of the explosion would be under ground. also the magnification of the swan station does not make sense, niether does the release every 108 minutes. the h-bomb's radiation is finate. it is not infinante. after pushing the button so many times for 30 som odd years it would still not be building up at the same rate as when it first started.
Your point may just make mine make sense. So we see that bomb is leaking and they decide to build the Swan around it. However, perhaps they didn't build it big enough or the effects of the island cause some side effects so they create a way to release just a small amount of radiation every 108 minutes. It saves the island from being destroyed but for so 30 years or so releases radiation onto the island and its inhabitants. it could even explain the incident as perhaps someone forgot to push the button just like we see when the plane goes down. Also, this would explain Danielle's people getting sick, the quarantine on the door, etc. So present time the bomb is empty or at least almost empty after it released so much to bring the plane down so to speak but no ones knows that because they are all dead so Desmond keeps pushing the button. When they finally don't press the button, well i haven't figured the implosion out but perhaps it would suppose to be a fail safe adverse imploding elctromagnet to suppress the exploding hydrogen bomb only there is not hydrogen bomb left.

Your point may just make mine make sense. So we see that bomb is leaking and they decide to build the Swan around it. However, perhaps they didn't build it big enough or the effects of the island cause some side effects so they create a way to release just a small amount of radiation every 108 minutes. It saves the island from being destroyed but for so 30 years or so releases radiation onto the island and its inhabitants. it could even explain the incident as perhaps someone forgot to push the button just like we see when the plane goes down. Also, this would explain Danielle's people getting sick, the quarantine on the door, etc. So present time the bomb is empty or at least almost empty after it released so much to bring the plane down so to speak but no ones knows that because they are all dead so Desmond keeps pushing the button. When they finally don't press the button, well i haven't figured the implosion out but perhaps it would suppose to be a fail safe adverse imploding elctromagnet to suppress the exploding hydrogen bomb only there is not hydrogen bomb left.

How would life have remained if radiation was constantly being released? The island cures cancer, radiation would cause it. People have been on the island for those 30 years. How did Danielle live so long? She would have no hair. Although, radiation poisoning being "the sickness" seems plausible, it would kill them all, right?

Bikini atoll anyone?

I haven't quite decided whether Jughead is the real reason for the Swan. Jughead looked about the same size as 'Little Boy', the A-bomb dropped on Nagasaki, but Jughead being an H-bomb instead, it would depend on how much Pu-239 is contained, not to mention U-239. And according to Wikipedia, the half-life of Pu-239 is 24,111 yrs. The lead lining in walls for a CT scanner contains @least 1" of lead, so to safely house something the size of Jughead would require beaucoup lead, not mention tons of concrete, to ensure that it does not leak, let alone detonate. Since it was leaking, it could have very well been giving off low levels of radiation to possibly affect conception on the island. I'm just speculating.

Oops, pardon my digression. X-radiation v. electromagnetic radiation? Different type of physics, I would say. X-radation causes more deleterious effects on cells than electrogametic radiation. There was definitely electromagnetism in the Swan as evidenced of the key around Jack's neck in S2. I don't know that I would want Jughead anywhere near electromagnetism, knowing the consequences of the H-bomb......total destruction of the island and it's effect on the entire planet, fallout and nuclear winter.

Having said all that, it could have also been a dud!

Bikini atoll anyone?
Oops, pardon my digression. X-radiation v. electromagnetic radiation? Different type of physics, I would say. X-radation causes more deleterious effects on cells than electrogametic radiation.


Just to clarify: x-rays are electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation is one of the basic constituents of our universe, so to speak. Depending on the wavelength (or energy) of the em-rays, we call it by different names. "Light", "X-Rays", "Heat", "Radio" are just a few.

X-rays are not good for your health because they are em rays of somewhat high energy. A light bulb emits heaps of em-radiation. Most of those are low-energetic heat-waves (that's why a light bulb is pretty hot even after a few seconds), but a part of those are visible-light em-waves.

Being a physicist, I think it is fair to say that Lost tries really hard to be at least a little bit scientifically plausible -- but it's still a TV show and most of it's "science" is just dropping buzz words.

But, even as a physicist, it's still fun to watch. The science is really not too crazy!
:biggrin:

I don't think it's what's behind the Swan Hatch for these reasons -

The bomb is too far from where the Swan hatch is. Like Lost_in_Deland_FL said, why would they take a chance and lug that bomb all the way into the woods when it's unstable.
As someone else on here said, the radiation, if it leaked, would cause cancer. The Island heals cancer among other diseases.
The DI were the modern builders on the Island. Not the Others. Not the Natives.

lostspacemonkey,
Hey, thanks for the clarification. Finally, someone who's a phycisist. Yeah!=)

I don't think it's what's behind the Swan Hatch for these reasons -

The bomb is too far from where the Swan hatch is. Like Lost_in_Deland_FL said, why would they take a chance and lug that bomb all the way into the woods when it's unstable.
As someone else on here said, the radiation, if it leaked, would cause cancer. The Island heals cancer among other diseases.
The DI were the modern builders on the Island. Not the Others. Not the Natives.


The Swan did seem to be in a different location on the island. They were by those giant beautiful mountains in 1954. The Swan seems like it's deep in the jungle but closer to the beach. It's just bizarre to think that a hydrogen bomb is buried somewhere on the island and that bloopy time-traveling has not detonated it. But maybe it is deactivated in a coming episode and we just haven't seen that.

So does Widmore want the island so he'll have control of the bomb, or is he so eager to get back because Richard at one time felt Widmore might be their leader and told that to young cocky Widmore? I still don't get Widmore's obsession completely. Is he seeking Richard's seeming immortality? Does he wish to time-travel or to use time-travel to rule the world? Well, this is all OT I suppose. I'm just so wound up from this episode. F*CK I love Lost!
100%
Just to clarify: x-rays are electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation is one of the basic constituents of our universe, so to speak. Depending on the wavelength (or energy) of the em-rays, we call it by different names. "Light", "X-Rays", "Heat", "Radio" are just a few.

X-rays are not good for your health because they are em rays of somewhat high energy. A light bulb emits heaps of em-radiation. Most of those are low-energetic heat-waves (that's why a light bulb is pretty hot even after a few seconds), but a part of those are visible-light em-waves.

Being a physicist, I think it is fair to say that Lost tries really hard to be at least a little bit scientifically plausible -- but it's still a TV show and most of it's "science" is just dropping buzz words.

But, even as a physicist, it's still fun to watch. The science is really not too crazy!
:biggrin:
So lostspacemonkey, do you think that the radiation from a hydrogen bomb of that size could be released slowly, like in intervals of 108 minutes, in a way that doesn't harm the living things around it? Is that at all plausible?

Faraday said to bury the bomb in concrete. We know that this time was before the Dharama people came to the island. So my theory is that they bury the bomb. The Dharma people accidently do something to it beacuse if you remember in the swann oreination video Dr. Candlewood said there was an accident. so now when thy push the button it discharges the bomb.

Faraday said to bury the bomb in concrete. We know that this time was before the Dharama people came to the island. So my theory is that they bury the bomb. The Dharma people accidently do something to it beacuse if you remember in the swann oreination video Dr. Candlewood said there was an accident. so now when thy push the button it discharges the bomb.


Totally along the lines of what I started thinking after last night's "you have to bury it" conversation.

Hmmm. I always thought it was electromagnetism that Desmond was exposed to, not radiation.But good thought.

So how on earth did Desmond, Locke, Charlie, and Eko survive the blast of an H-bomb? I agree that the bomb may be the Swan but it's crazy to think these four lived through the explosion. I'm baffled.

I don't think this is correct. There was magnetism going on in the swan hatch, we saw it. Forks and knives stuck to the wall. It wasn't radiation, it wasn't the H bomb.

I'm betting, based on the location of the camp of tents, that the H bomb is buried UNDER "New Otherton".

Even though we don't know when, the Losties travelled in time right after Locke was asking Alpert how to leave the island, but it didn't look like the terrain where the Swan was located.

lostspacemonkey,
Hey, thanks for the clarification. Finally, someone who's a phycisist. Yeah!=)

Yes I agree and would like to hear a bit more to either make of break the question of this thread.

If Jughead is the reason for the Swan, then how did Desmond, Locke, Charlie, and Eko survive its blast? Locke hasn't felt any effects like Desmond has. How is that explained?

If Jughead is the reason for the Swan, then how did Desmond, Locke, Charlie, and Eko survive its blast? Locke hasn't felt any effects like Desmond has. How is that explained?

Well my thinking is the Jughead bomb has not gone off. What I'm thinking the fail safe key may have done is to secure the bomb even more than it originally was. I'm imagining a bomb in a giant ball of lead and concrete at the base of the station as we've seen, possibly being used to generate energy somehow thus the magnetism. When the fur flies the key is turned rendering the bomb inactive and the something (unknown at this point but possibly the dark matter from the orchid) sucks the bomb, concrete casing and all, to a safer place deep under the island. Therefore no atomic explosions and no way to ever get to the bomb again.

I forgot to add that maybe just maybe the failsafe key turning thwarted the bomb from going off and releasing the negative energy from below the Orchid. If an atomic bomb went off it would certainly rupture the entire island and release this energy and possibly destroy the earth.

The implosion was a fail safe to bury the Jughead even deeper and therefore safer under the island.



OOOOOh I really am liking this explanation. That is why stuff ( the Hatch included) was sucked down into the ground!!

I don't know if this was already posted in here, but I originally saw this in the "Jughead couldn't be an H-Bomb" thread here: http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=106295

Credit to Sam G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon

U.S. SWAN DEVICE - 1956

The first device whose dimensions suggest employment of all these features (two-point, hollow-pit, fusion-boosted implosion) was the Swan device, tested June 22, 1956, as the Inca shot of Operation Redwing, at Eniwetok. Its yield was 15 kilotons, about the same as Little Boy, the Hiroshima bomb. It weighed 105 lb (47.6 kg) and was cylindrical in shape, 11.6 inches (29.5 cm) in diameter and 22.9 inches (58 cm) long. The above schematic illustrates what were probably its essential features.

Eleven days later, July 3, 1956, the Swan was test-fired again at Eniwetok, as the Mohawk shot of Redwing. This time it served as the primary, or first stage, of a two-stage thermonuclear device, a role it played in a dozen such tests during the 1950s. Swan was the first off-the-shelf, multi-use primary, and the prototype for all that followed.

After the success of Swan, 11 or 12 inches (300 mm) seemed to become the standard diameter of boosted single-stage devices tested during the 1950s. Length was usually twice the diameter, but one such device, which became the W54 warhead, was closer to a sphere, only 15 inches (380 mm) long. It was tested two dozen times in the 1957-62 period before being deployed. No other design had such a long string of test failures. Since the longer devices tended to work correctly on the first try, there must have been some difficulty in flattening the two high explosive lenses enough to achieve the desired length-to-width ratio.






As Sam G said in the other thread, the date is a bit off (1956)... but we ARE on a time travelling island! :biggrin:

I agree with those who believe The Swan hatch was created in part to house/protect the buried hydrogen bomb. The question is: What role did the DI play?

Could Jughead be somehow connected to the "incident"?

I don't think the bomb is the Hatch. I think it buried in the concrete wall of a four toed statue.

Maybe the bomb did explode, but the super-powerful magnetic forcefield being generated at the Swan was able to contain the blast.

Or maybe the tunnelers were about to drill into Jughead.

-AJF

I have read this thread and other, but have seen no mention of Sayid's analysis of the Swan's foundation.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sayid_Jarrah#Season_2_.28Days_46-67.29

He claimed that "the last time he heard of concrete being poured over everything like this was Chernobyl." Now, the scientific connections between the foundation and electro-magnetic properties of the Swan might not be clear, but Jughead was most definitely covered in concrete. This later became the foundation for the Swan station.

I don't really see how this can be argued against.

I have read this thread and other, but have seen no mention of Sayid's analysis of the Swan's foundation.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sayid_Jarrah#Season_2_.28Days_46-67.29

He claimed that "the last time he heard of concrete being poured over everything like this was Chernobyl." Now, the scientific connections between the foundation and electro-magnetic properties of the Swan might not be clear, but Jughead was most definitely covered in concrete. This later became the foundation for the Swan station.

I don't really see how this can be argued against.

I also picked up on this and emailed a bunch of friends this morning.

It would be a great piece of continuity if true.

Remember in The Constant, Daniel says that the reason Desmond is tripping is because he might have been exposed to radiation recently? Well, we assumed this to come from the failsafe key turn, but if our theory about Jughead being in the Swan is correct, it would tie together nicely...

I'm kind of thinking the Swan station was built to contain the bomb. For some reason, the numbers had to be entered to keep it from detonating. When they weren't entered, it started it's detonation sequence. The failsafe key was turned, which threw up a Mighty Powerful Magnetic Forcefield (tm), containing the blast.

-AJF

Well the other telling snippet is when Faraday tells the young soldier chick something about not being to worried about the bomb going off because he'd been 50+ years into the future and the island is still there.

The bomb is still on or way under the island in modern day time. LOL whatever the heck modern day time means anymore. :)

My first thought when I saw "Jughead" was that it was under the Swan Station. The more I think about it I second guess myself..... The Swan station seems to have been built by the DI. But the "Others" are the ones that bury the bomb. That is if they listen to Daniel. The DI did not come to the island untill the 70's, and the bomb was buried in the 50's.

Could buried Jughead contribute to the Island's special properties & be a way for the "real world" to find it?

I don't believe that the Swan station was built around the buried Jughead. The Swan station was built by the Dharma Initiative at least 20 years after the events we saw in the episode; the Swan station was built to study the "unique electromagnetic fluctuations of the Island", and was built in a completely different location than where we see Jughead.

Someone explain to me how an H-Bomb rendered inert at least 20 years before the construction of the Swan could emit such a powerful EM field (note also Jughead's relatively modest size), and how could the Dharma scientists not notice that what they believed was a natural EM phenomenon was actually coming from a buried bomb. They had sufficient equipment to find that out.

(By the way, what Inman tells Desmond at the end of Season 2 regarding the Swan and the incident is a reasonable explanation and I don't see a reason to doubt him. He was drunk and frustrated and desperate, why lie? Being drunk, frustrated and desperate are actually physical/emotional conditions that, for one, facilitate the truth).

On a final note: Faraday says that to render Jughead inert is enough to cover it in lead or concrete and bury it. That's it. Why build a laboratory around/over it decades later?

that would explain why the hatch door had "quarantine" written on it.
100%
but i think you are right about the location of jughead not seeming to be where the hatch was. Wouldn't one of our guys said something to the effect of "isn't this where our hatch was?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_bomb

There is a section that talks about a bomb codenamed "The Swan". This in itself makes me beleive that The Swan was really hiding Jughead. Also, in Season 1, Sayid states that The Swan is heavily concreted with electromagnetism traits. Much like Chernobyl.

However, when Faraday says he can make it inert, that quickly made me think of The Tempest. Personally I think they put Jughead beneath The Swan and it's radioactivity helped result in many things curious on the island. Like the curing of cancer or assisting the power of the electormagnetism which causes the time rifts.

I don't believe that the Swan station was built around the buried Jughead. The Swan station was built by the Dharma Initiative at least 20 years after the events we saw in the episode; the Swan station was built to study the &quot;unique electromagnetic fluctuations of the Island&quot;, and was built in a completely different location than where we see Jughead.

This is the cover story that Dharma/Hanso put out about the Swan. In reality, it was built to house this hydrogen bomb they discovered on the island and deemed too dangerous to unearth/move. Someone explain to me how an H-Bomb rendered inert at least 20 years before the construction of the Swan could emit such a powerful EM field (note also Jughead's relatively modest size), and how could the Dharma scientists not notice that what they believed was a natural EM phenomenon was actually coming from a buried bomb. They had sufficient equipment to find that out.
The bomb isn't emitting a EM field. The magnetic shield Dharma built around the bomb to contain it is emitting the EM field. Dharma is using the story about natural EM phenomena to conceal the fact that they built a giant magnetic forcefield. On a final note: Faraday says that to render Jughead inert is enough to cover it in lead or concrete and bury it. That's it. Why build a laboratory around/over it decades later? Because the lead/concrete containment was failing after a couple of decades of natural wear/volcanic activity/Dharma tunneling, etc. Dharma didn't want to get radiation sickness or blowed up to kingdom come, so they built the Swan to deal with Jughead.

-AJF

As far as contamination, I remember reading something about an H bomb that dives deep into the earth and then explodes, and then the earth collapses on top of it and restrains the radiation. Couldn't that have happened with the Swan? The only thing is how it didn't kill Des, Locke, etc.

I don't think this is correct. There was magnetism going on in the swan hatch, we saw it. Forks and knives stuck to the wall. It wasn't radiation, it wasn't the H bomb.


Exactly my train of thought.
I disagree that the H bomb is under the hatch.

I don't know if this was already posted in here, but I originally saw this in the "Jughead couldn't be an H-Bomb" thread here: http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=106295

Credit to Sam G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon


As Sam G said in the other thread, the date is a bit off (1956)... but we ARE on a time travelling island! :biggrin:

The Four States of Matter (http://books.google.com/books?id=pPqq7EvBDZkC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=hydrogen+bomb+magnetic&source=web&ots=Wl_1an8c7U&sig=WphyVPbiBYxSR-MNDQyt6QURQoM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result)

I think this helps prove what the Swan Hatch was.

Swan Device (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_primary)


Enewetak Atoll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enewetak)

The people began returning in the 1970s, and on May 15, 1977, the U.S. government directed the military to decontaminate the islands. This was done by mixing the contaminated soil and debris from the various islands with Portland cement and burying it in one of the blast craters. The crater was at the northern end of Runit 11°33′9.22″N 162°20′50.29″E, which is an island on the eastern side of the atoll. This continued until the crater became a spherical mound 25 feet (7.6 m) high. The crater was then covered with an 18-inch (460 mm) thick concrete cap.

'll guess ...yes the Swan was built NEXT TO, not "on top of" where the bomb was buried, but it's not the same location as we saw last night.

Last night we saw Juggy right over a rise from "Other Valley", the same camp area we saw Locke visit with Alpert and Benry before. It's where they went when Ben took them away from New Otherton...not the same place as Otherton.

It's where we saw John be told to kill his Dad, who was tied to that Temple Column. We didn't see the column last night; but Juliet said "he's always been here." So i'm thinking this is or very near where the "Temple" is.

The Swan hatch is in a very jungle-covered area, and wasn't it in the area Danielle called the "Dark Territory"? (and within Smokey's patrol route) So they put the bomb in an area as far away from them as they could. There's a 20 year time gap from 1954 and the Dharmas in the 70's. Could be it was buried, then much later the Swan was built next to it to try and control it's emmissions as said above.
Sayid def'ly said there was raditation under the hatch that was surrounded by lead and concrete.

We know as said above, that the bomb does not have magnetic properties, but could the magnetism found in that part of the island be used to help control it's radiation?

So all in all, i think we've seen 3 different ways to destroy the Island...the H-bomb, the Tempest Gas station, and the Orchid 'exotic matter'.

Am I the only one who played Lost: Via Domus?

The main character of that game actually goes under the hatch. It was this HUGE device, or magnet, that is presumably used to balance the electromagnetic properties, or exotic matter of that part of the island. Even if there was an H-Bomb underneath the Swan Hatch, what does the giant device do to protect the H bomb? And even if the H-Bomb was buried there, and assuming that there are electromagnetic properties/exotic matter, why bury it there?

'll guess ...yes the Swan was built NEXT TO, not "on top of" where the bomb was buried, but it's not the same location as we saw last night.

Last night we saw Juggy right over a rise from "Other Valley", the same camp area we saw Locke visit with Alpert and Benry before. It's where they went when Ben took them away from New Otherton...not the same place as Otherton.

It's where we saw John be told to kill his Dad, who was tied to that Temple Column. We didn't see the column last night; but Juliet said "he's always been here." So i'm thinking this is or very near where the "Temple" is.

The Swan hatch is in a very jungle-covered area, and wasn't it in the area Danielle called the "Dark Territory"? (and within Smokey's patrol route) So they put the bomb in an area as far away from them as they could. There's a 20 year time gap from 1954 and the Dharmas in the 70's. Could be it was buried, then much later the Swan was built next to it to try and control it's emmissions as said above.
Sayid def'ly said there was raditation under the hatch that was surrounded by lead and concrete.

We know as said above, that the bomb does not have magnetic properties, but could the magnetism found in that part of the island be used to help control it's radiation?

So all in all, i think we've seen 3 different ways to destroy the Island...the H-bomb, the Tempest Gas station, and the Orchid 'exotic matter'.

The Four States of Matter (http://books.google.com/books?id=pPqq7EvBDZkC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=hydrogen+bomb+magnetic&source=web&ots=Wl_1an8c7U&sig=WphyVPbiBYxSR-MNDQyt6QURQoM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result) a H-bomb may not be magnetic but it looks to me that you can use powerful magnets to contain it.

To keep it as far away from where the others live/dwell as possible.

I don't think the Swan was built around Jughead, the DI came later. But the others could have buried it inadvertently in a high area of EM, where later the DI comes along and builds the swan. The possible proximity of the Swan and Jughead bomb could be close.

Concrete didn't stop the magnetism, so it makes me think it's possible the DI broke into the concrete casing jughead was buried in. Causing radiation to leak out. Hence all the concrete. The implosion of the Swan possibly controlled the explosion of Jughead...? I don't know.

Right now, we don't know where it was buried, but I don't think they'd introduce it if we weren't going to find out eventually.

This is the cover story that Dharma/Hanso put out about the Swan. In reality, it was built to house this hydrogen bomb they discovered on the island and deemed too dangerous to unearth/move.

The hydrogen bomb they discovered on the island more than 20 years later? So they find it, think it's too dangerous to unearth/move, and what do they do? They risk building a whole complex structure like the Swan around the bomb? Have you seen the Swan plans? To build an underground hatch like the Swan you have to dig -- a lot. The risks of moving that bomb would be too high to do such a thing. I don't buy it.

Plus, the geography doesn't add up. The Swan is located much closer to the beach than the inland site where Jughead was placed. Faraday said that Jughead was to be handled very carefully because it was unstable. Sure, they could have drowned it in lead or concrete and then moved it, but with what? I didn't see heavy-duty vehicles to do the job. It's more likely they buried it where we saw it.

Nice link Sam.

Darlton said way back when that that part of the island is somewhat of a mystery to the Others and they didn't really know much about it or the Swan and it's function. They don't hang on that end of the island. They don't have many pic-a-nics there, you see.

But, neither would I if I had possibly dragged a leaking H-Bomb to that end of the island where I don't hang out. They will probably be preaching the gospel to the rest of The Others to avoid that end for years afterward since it's known there is a leaky thermonuclear device buried on that part of the island. It's a good reason for them to not know alot about that part of the island and to avoid it, and backs up what Darlton said about their lack of knowledge about that end of the island.

It makes sense to drag it far away, due to the leakage. But, the bomb is not buried in a stable environment in our Terra Firma, where we have a better knowledge of the rules. Rather, it's buried in a highly unstable environment that has unique and unusual properties. So how it will behave over time(s)?

One thing: the DI should've already known about the bomb because Widmore knows about the bomb. So I don't see how it would be a surprise to them that there is a bomb buried on the island..(<>..<>)

Excellent point. Since it seems likely that the bomb would end up being buried quickly and Widmore's on the island at that point, he should know.

I don't see him leaving the island any time before the bomb is buried and then coming back.

Unless he decided not to mention it to anyone. But why wouldn't he? It could potential destroy the islnd he wants so bad. Good catch UAC

Excellent point. Since it seems likely that the bomb would end up being buried quickly and Widmore's on the island at that point, he should know.

I don't see him leaving the island any time before the bomb is buried and then coming back.

Unless he decided not to mention it to anyone. But why wouldn't he? It could potential destroy the islnd he wants so bad. Good catch UAC

Thanks Merch, and to reiterate an earlier point: On the electrical map Sayid had, there were 20' tall subterranean tunnels indicated on the map. Remember when people were theorizing that this was the particle accelerator under the island? I also heard "proposed rail line" in regards to these tunnels. But since the DI would have known about the bomb, couldn't these be blast tunnels in the case that it ever did detonate?

These blast tunnels at the Nevada Test Site look about 20' tall, no? And if I'm not mistaken, those look like rail lines in the Nevada tunnels and this may have been where"proposed rail line" came from in the theorizing on the tunnels...(<>..<>)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/UnderAlienControl/JN69386tunnel.jpg

That would certainly help in deadening the blast, even if it was a partial detonation, of the Jughead Bomb.

Just throwing this out there, but, what if Richard and Co. moved the bomb away from their camp.

DHARMA built the stations and what if Richard was more than happy not to tell them a bomb was buried there, on the other side of the island away from Richards people.
Dharma finds a bomb, thinks it was there all along and makes a station to stop the radiation (or whatever) leaks.

That's why they moved the bomb.
Simply to get it away from his people.

But Widmore was with Richard and company presumably when the bomb was buried. And it looks like he has ties to Dharma and the island in the seventies and eighties. Since he wants the island, I can't see him not telling them that it's there.

It has the potential to destroy the island, something Widmore doesn't want to happen. I'd think he'd find a way to tell someone, Hanso or whoever.

Ok, since they don't have the concrete at the time, they move the bomb. When DI comes, they know about the bomb and they want to use it. So they build the swan to protect it like a missle silo kinda. The swan was a secure launching/detonation housing for the bomb. But an Incident/accident causes the radioactive material to leak. So they backfill the holding room with concrete.

After this has happened, because of the danger to DI and the island, a canary bird was placed outside of the containment room and told to push the button every 108 minutes to signal he is still alive and the containment is good. At this point is is just monitoring of radioactive material and there will never be risk of an explosion, so Ben does not care so much about it either way.

Now here is the new part. The hatch never exploded or imploded.... The failsafe installed used the island's abilities of time travel/transport to warp the entire hatch area into another time/space to save the island. Like moving the island, it is considered a measure of last resort and very dangerous to the time line, etc. That is why the sky lit up like when the island jumped, nearly the same as when the hatch blew up.

My theory does not attempt to explain the magnetic properties which could come from the failsafe and not the radioactive material... Why the magnatism after 108 minutes? I can only think of the same thing as the failsafe key, it was just the failsafe ramping up to beam the hatch to another area of space/time.


This also explains why Demsond and them lived. Any explosion would have killed Desmond for sure, but since he was not bound to the hatch or something, when it changed time/space, he was left behind, but affected by the time travel energy used to beam out the hatch...

Perhaps the failsafe key was just a way of triggering the same events that would happen after 108 minutes, but in a way that you are protected and left behind..

The monitoring of the swan was to watch for signs of radiation sickness. The injections were related to localized radiation sickness possibilities.

Vaughn

I think I'm going for something simple...

The Others bury the bomb in the ground with lead and concerete.
This renders the bomb completeley harmless, as Daniel said it would.
Swan Station gets built on top of it.
Failsafe is turned.
Swan Station implodes.
The Bomb is still there, in lead lined concrete, and completly harmless.

ie the Swan Station's purpose has nothing to do with the buried bomb (I reckon The Incident is more likley Orchid-related). It just happens to be built on top of it.

Works for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Castle Thanks T and BL

The Romeo and Koon tests were complete by the time of this revision. The Echo test was canceled due to the liquid fuel design becoming obsolete with the success of the dry-fueled Bravo. The Jughead device was similarly considered obsolete and the Yankee test was conducted using a Runt II device (similar to the Union device) hastily completed at Los Alamos and flown to Bikini. With this revision, both of the "wet" fuel devices were removed from the test schedule.


Dates this 1954

Check the chart in the middle Yankee - Jughead

There's also a Zombie device

its a good theory but i dont think jughead has anything to do with the swan hatch.

Why's that BL?

The Swan has caused big white light with a purple sky and the crazy noises multiple times. This is the same thing that happens when Ben turns the Donkey Wheel and the time afterward. Clearly, the Swan & the Donkey Wheel are related, in that they are dealing with the same mysterious electromagnetic properties of the Island. Neither of these have anything to do with an H-Bomb.

Also, the Game is non-canon, we don't know what's on the other side of that wall in the Swan.

its a good theory but i dont think jughead has anything to do with the swan hatch.

I dont either.

Why's that BL?

i cant see how the button pushing protocol would safely release or control that kind of radiation.

OK. Let's think logically (or as logically as you can with Lost).

You have a giant, unstable H-Bomb hanging in it's tower. You want to MOVE this bomb to bury it? Heck no! Leave it where it is. Encase it with concrete like Faraday suggested.

Right, but a big, monolithic slab of concrete in the middle of nowhere might seem a bit suspicious, no? Someone might want to see what's in this slab of concrete, Especially if someone is looking for the bomb. So you disguise it.

As a giant, broken statue of a four-toed foot, maybe?

Nice bit of creative thinking; but Faraday specifically insisted that the bomb had to be buried. I believe he intended this to mean under ground, not somehow encased above the ground.

I had posted this in another thread, but I think it is much more applicable in this one so I thought I would throw it out there for you guys - I'd love to know what you think! :)

The bomb itself isn't magnetic - it's buried there and encased in the concrete to seal off the radiation and the electromagnet(s) or electromagnetic properties of The Swan are helping contain/harness the radiation as a power source; hence the "anchor" I mentioned...(I had a thread about a year ago called The Swan and The Anchor if you're interested)

I could be way off... but it just seems too coincidental, because Faraday asked Jack/Juliet if Desmond had been exposed to any large amounts of radiation when he started flipping out on the helicopter and the Freighter - and if i remember right, his experiments at Oxford involved both electromagnetism and radiation.

If you need to generate an electromagnetic "bubble" large enough to encase or cloak an entire Island, you're going to need a MASSIVE power source to generate that kind of power - hence the hydrogen bomb. Dharma was using the bomb to generate enough power to create an EM bubble large enough to "anchor" the Island


At this point, I'm thinking that the bomb is what was buried under The Swan and that the station was built on top of where the bomb is now...or very close by. I wonder if the electromagnet in The Swan was somehow containing or harnessing the radiation leaking from the bomb in order to fuel Dharma's experiments in time travel or other projects? I'm by no means an atomic bomb expert...so please feel free to punch holes in this :)

I'm still rather certain that we will find out that Daniel plays a very large part in the construction and/or design of The Swan station, and that the electromagnetic properties of that station are what is containing the radiation leaking from the bomb. Perhaps pushing the button every 108 minutes allows for the safe discharge of that built-up radiation - and by activating the failsafe Desmond actually released the remaining pent-up radiation in a final "swan song" of sorts :) Even though they buried the bomb and encased it in concrete to protect everyone from the leaking radiation, you have to think that someone with Dharma finally asked the question: "So we have this buried atomic bomb here, that's leaking radiation...can't we find *some way* of harnessing the radiation in a safe manner that will allow us to use/exploit it for our own purposes??"


Now that I think about it, maybe after that question was asked, Daniel presents a way for them to use it to power the huge electromagnet he has designed that essentially acts as an "anchor" for the Island and prevents it from moving in space/time. (See my theories about the Swan being an "anchor" for the Island to prevent it from moving, and this is why Ben wanted the button-pushing to stop and the Swan destroyed)

As long as the Swan is intact and the electromagnet "bubble" encasing the Island, it cannot use the dark matter/material under the Orchid to "move" the Island. The failsafe was created as an emergency means of removing the "bubble" in case the Island or time itself was in grave danger and the Island needed to be moved in order to prevent a catastrophe. So when Desmond turned the key, the resonating hum and purple sky event we saw was actually the electromagnetic "bubble" bursting so to speak...which removed the Island's "anchor" and allowed it to be moved again.

Maybe when the Island is moved after destroying the Swan, the purpose of the move is to go back in time and "course correct" the events that led up to it needing to be moved in the first place?? So Dan and everyone that are jumping around in the past (and possibly the future, we don't know yet) are supposed to correct the events, ensure the Swan is rebuilt, and everything goes back to the way it "should" have been?? Does this make sense to anyone else? It sounds semi-solid in my mind... but maybe I'm just nuts :D lol

And as far as the Tempest station, that is where the toxic gas was manufactured and contained - the burns that Goodwin had on his arms that Juliet wrapped up were chemical burns she said, not radiation burns...

I think I'm going for something simple...

The Others bury the bomb in the ground with lead and concerete.
This renders the bomb completeley harmless, as Daniel said it would.
Swan Station gets built on top of it.
Failsafe is turned.
Swan Station implodes.
The Bomb is still there, in lead lined concrete, and completly harmless.

ie the Swan Station's purpose has nothing to do with the buried bomb (I reckon The Incident is more likley Orchid-related). It just happens to be built on top of it.

Works for me.

Yea. Simple is best. Not related, both just in close proximity to one another.

I had posted this in another thread, but I think it is much more applicable in this one so I thought I would throw it out there for you guys - I'd love to know what you think! :)

The bomb itself isn't magnetic - it's buried there and encased in the concrete to seal off the radiation and the electromagnet(s) or electromagnetic properties of The Swan are helping contain/harness the radiation as a power source; hence the "anchor" I mentioned...(I had a thread about a year ago called The Swan and The Anchor if you're interested)

I could be way off... but it just seems too coincidental, because Faraday asked Jack/Juliet if Desmond had been exposed to any large amounts of radiation when he started flipping out on the helicopter and the Freighter - and if i remember right, his experiments at Oxford involved both electromagnetism and radiation.

If you need to generate an electromagnetic "bubble" large enough to encase or cloak an entire Island, you're going to need a MASSIVE power source to generate that kind of power - hence the hydrogen bomb. Dharma was using the bomb to generate enough power to create an EM bubble large enough to "anchor" the Island


At this point, I'm thinking that the bomb is what was buried under The Swan and that the station was built on top of where the bomb is now...or very close by. I wonder if the electromagnet in The Swan was somehow containing or harnessing the radiation leaking from the bomb in order to fuel Dharma's experiments in time travel or other projects? I'm by no means an atomic bomb expert...so please feel free to punch holes in this :)

I'm still rather certain that we will find out that Daniel plays a very large part in the construction and/or design of The Swan station, and that the electromagnetic properties of that station are what is containing the radiation leaking from the bomb. Perhaps pushing the button every 108 minutes allows for the safe discharge of that built-up radiation - and by activating the failsafe Desmond actually released the remaining pent-up radiation in a final "swan song" of sorts :) Even though they buried the bomb and encased it in concrete to protect everyone from the leaking radiation, you have to think that someone with Dharma finally asked the question: "So we have this buried atomic bomb here, that's leaking radiation...can't we find *some way* of harnessing the radiation in a safe manner that will allow us to use/exploit it for our own purposes??"


Now that I think about it, maybe after that question was asked, Daniel presents a way for them to use it to power the huge electromagnet he has designed that essentially acts as an "anchor" for the Island and prevents it from moving in space/time. (See my theories about the Swan being an "anchor" for the Island to prevent it from moving, and this is why Ben wanted the button-pushing to stop and the Swan destroyed)

As long as the Swan is intact and the electromagnet "bubble" encasing the Island, it cannot use the dark matter/material under the Orchid to "move" the Island. The failsafe was created as an emergency means of removing the "bubble" in case the Island or time itself was in grave danger and the Island needed to be moved in order to prevent a catastrophe. So when Desmond turned the key, the resonating hum and purple sky event we saw was actually the electromagnetic "bubble" bursting so to speak...which removed the Island's "anchor" and allowed it to be moved again.

Maybe when the Island is moved after destroying the Swan, the purpose of the move is to go back in time and "course correct" the events that led up to it needing to be moved in the first place?? So Dan and everyone that are jumping around in the past (and possibly the future, we don't know yet) are supposed to correct the events, ensure the Swan is rebuilt, and everything goes back to the way it "should" have been?? Does this make sense to anyone else? It sounds semi-solid in my mind... but maybe I'm just nuts :D lol

And as far as the Tempest station, that is where the toxic gas was manufactured and contained - the burns that Goodwin had on his arms that Juliet wrapped up were chemical burns she said, not radiation burns...

Very nicely thought out. I guess we're going to have to wait, watch and see.
100%
i cant see how the button pushing protocol would safely release or control that kind of radiation.
Fair enough.

S3E8 Ms. Hawking: I know your name as well as I know that you don't ask Penny to marry you. In fact, you break her heart. Well, breaking her heart, of course, is what drives you in a few short years from now to enter that sailing race to prove her father wrong. Which brings you to the island where you spend the next 3 years of your life entering numbers into the computer...until you are forced to turn that failsafe key. And if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of US is dead. So give me that sodding ring!


S3E8 Ms. Hawking: You may not like your path, Desmond. But, pushing that button is the only truly great thing that you will ever do.

Of course, she could be lying.

OK. Let's think logically (or as logically as you can with Lost).

You have a giant, unstable H-Bomb hanging in it's tower. You want to MOVE this bomb to bury it? Heck no! Leave it where it is. Encase it with concrete like Faraday suggested.

Right, but a big, monolithic slab of concrete in the middle of nowhere might seem a bit suspicious, no? Someone might want to see what's in this slab of concrete, Especially if someone is looking for the bomb. So you disguise it.

As a giant, broken statue of a four-toed foot, maybe?


In the episode "The Brig", Locke's dad was strapped to a large monolithic slab of concrete when Ben was trying to get John to kill his father. This could be how they sealed it up.
the last thumbnail http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=photos#t=54633)
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1453-326.html

I thought the 4-toed statue was much closer to the coast and this was not that close.

Everyone keeps assuming Dharma built the stations when its a well known fact that there were hundreds (thousands?) of bunkers, such as the Swan built during WWII. I agree Dharma built the Orchid, but then that station looked a lot different than the Swan, the Hydra or even the Medical hatch.

I don't think the bomb has anything to do with the swan. The swan is related to electromagnetic radiation which is different than the radiation released by plutonium. I think the bomb relates to something we'll see in the future, not something we've already seen.

OK, this is what Darlton had to say about the Swan station in Access Granted from the LOST S3 Blu-ray:

Damon Lindelof: Let's just say, theoretically, inside the Island there was this ball of electromagnetic energy. And, let's just say, there was a group of people—we’ll call them the DHARMA Initiative—sort of drilling around, and doing general futzing on the Island, and they accidentally drilled into this hole, and suddenly that entire ball of electromagnetism became untapped, so they built this Swan Station above it, in an effort that it wouldn’t get completely out of control. So, by plugging that hole, you don’t actually do away with all the electromagnetism. It's still there.

Now, take that as you will, since they have been known to "stretch" the truth before!;)

OK, this is what Darlton had to say about the Swan station in Access Granted from the LOST S3 Blu-ray:

Damon Lindelof: Let's just say, theoretically, inside the Island there was this ball of electromagnetic energy. And, let's just say, there was a group of people—we’ll call them the DHARMA Initiative—sort of drilling around, and doing general futzing on the Island, and they accidentally drilled into this hole, and suddenly that entire ball of electromagnetism became untapped, so they built this Swan Station above it, in an effort that it wouldn’t get completely out of control. So, by plugging that hole, you don’t actually do away with all the electromagnetism. It's still there.

Now, take that as you will, since they have been known to "stretch" the truth before!;)

Exactly. That's why they would later name an episode "Jughead".

This is from S2E4 - Everybody Hates Hugo:

[Shot of Sayid digging into the wall with a piece of metal]
Jack How's it going?
Sayid It's not. On the other side of this door there's more concrete. I'd say it's at least 8 to 10 feet thick.
Jack You see this?
[Jack leans forward showing Sayid how his key is attracted to the magnet]
Sayid Interesting. Good thing this is titanium... almost no magnetic attraction... but we're not going to get in up here.
Jack Up here?
Sayid Perhaps we can go under it.

Then, later in the same episode:

[Shot of Sayid and Jack in the bunker]
Sayid This is the last duct. I believe we're under the area where we began. They poured concrete all the way down here, too. Just as thick.
Jack Maybe there's a way around it. What is all this stuff?
Sayid My best guess? There's geothermal generator behind this wall. That's the power source. Careful with these pipes. They're very hot.
Jack That's it. Nothing. It's blocked. So what do you think, Sayid?
Sayid What do I think about what, Jack?
Jack This place, the computer, and what do you think is going on?
Sayid The last time I heard of concrete being poured over everything in this way was Chernobyl.

I keep studying the blast door map, specifically the area around The Swan, to see if any of the notations have taken on new meaning.

Is it possible that they were doing the construction for The Swan station and were silly enough to drill through the slab? Then they poured concrete back over it to reseal the bomb and just built the station around it? That's really the only thing I can think of that explains the gap from 1954 until the 70s Dharma Initiative.

I can almost see Pierre Chang saying, "This station is far too important to our research to give up! We must re-encase the device in concrete and continue construction!"

There's a 20 years or so between Jughead and the Swan hatch. We don't know what happened on the island in those years.

Why would they lug an unstable bomb across the island?


Do we know it was unstable?

Do we know it was unstable?

Well, there was a crack in the casing and leaking. Dan freaked out when he saw that and called it unsafe.

I can almost see Pierre Chang saying, "This station is far too important to our research to give up! We must re-encase the device in concrete and continue construction!"

That does sound like something he would say.

But we have to remember that the Orchid and the Swan are completely different stations. If Jughead is near the FDW maybe they decided they needed to move Jughead far away from the FDW.

Originally Posted by The Partyman http://forum.thefuselage.com/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?p=2074373#post2074373)
I think I'm going for something simple...

The Others bury the bomb in the ground with lead and concerete.
This renders the bomb completeley harmless, as Daniel said it would.
Swan Station gets built on top of it.
Failsafe is turned.
Swan Station implodes.
The Bomb is still there, in lead lined concrete, and completly harmless.
ie the Swan Station's purpose has nothing to do with the buried bomb (I reckon The Incident is more likley Orchid-related). It just happens to be built on top of it.

Works for me.

************************
Actually, I think Desmond's turning the "fail safe" key in fact triggered the H-bomb/Jughead as some sort of drastic measure to stop the electromagnetic effect from spiraling out of control.

If you look at pictures/video of underground nuclear tests, on the surface the ground implodes leaving a concave implosion--similar to that of the aftereffect of the Swan station.

Here is some video of nuclear underground tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jfaXSFfGQ&feature=related

************************
Actually, I think Desmond's turning the "fail safe" key in fact triggered the H-bomb/Jughead as some sort of drastic measure to stop the electromagnetic effect from spiraling out of control.

If you look at pictures/video of underground nuclear tests, on the surface the ground implodes leaving a concave implosion--similar to that of the aftereffect of the Swan station.

Here is some video of nuclear underground tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jfaXSFfGQ&feature=related



The way they depicted the island disappearing in 4x13 showed high waves radiating from a circle of about the same area as those of the underground detonations in that film. I don't know what the bright light that preceded it was all about, but maybe blowing Jughead was part of the "moving" process.

The bomb might be related to the incident, and I'm sure will have a bigger part to play later, but no way was the EM disturbance that Desmond was discharging every 108 minutes the H-Bomb. People don't time travel when nuclear bombs go off ;)

Actually, if you remember, Faraday was experimenting with radiation-induced time travel. So yes, it is possible that a nuclear bomb (not neccesarily an explosion, but intense radiation from one) can cause the mind to "time travel" (at least in the LOST universe)

Also, the EM disturbance wasn't neccesarily caused by the H-Bomb, but by whatever they used to contain the radiation (i.e. EM reactor from Via Domus (the video game).

The way they depicted the island disappearing in 4x13 showed high waves radiating from a circle of about the same area as those of the underground detonations in that film. I don't know what the bright light that preceded it was all about, but maybe blowing Jughead was part of the "moving" process.

But the FDW is located at the Orchid, not the Swan, and the theory is that Jughead was located at the Swan. So how would that have worked?:confused:

************************
Actually, I think Desmond's turning the "fail safe" key in fact triggered the H-bomb/Jughead as some sort of drastic measure to stop the electromagnetic effect from spiraling out of control.

If you look at pictures/video of underground nuclear tests, on the surface the ground implodes leaving a concave implosion--similar to that of the aftereffect of the Swan station.

Here is some video of nuclear underground tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jfaXSFfGQ&feature=related



Nice second post Droogs.

Jughead bomb buried in vicinity of what will become Swan station.

The DI breaks into large ball of EM, it starts to leak out, they build the Swan as a stopgap, enter the numbers and rig the Jughead bomb, buried deep in the ground, to their failsafe key.

That's plausible.

If you think about it, where did the force come from to blow up the dam? Kelvin's words to Desmond: -do you have the courage to take your finger out of the dam and blow the whole thing up, instead?

And in looking that up, I found another interesting bit of dialogue in LTDA. TPTB have said they had things mapped out from an early stage right?
CHARLIE: John, it's Charlie. Let's work this thing out, John. John! Eko is very upset, John. Just open this door and we can talk about it. John, you should know Eko is going to blow open the blast door.
LOCKE: Blow it open with what?
CHARLIE: With dynamite from the old ship in the jungle.
DESMOND: It would take an atom bomb, brother. Tell him not to bother.


Nice add to the discussion Droogs, I'm now on the wagon that the Jughead bomb was tied to the failsafe.

************************
Actually, I think Desmond's turning the "fail safe" key in fact triggered the H-bomb/Jughead as some sort of drastic measure to stop the electromagnetic effect from spiraling out of control.



Extremely unlikely as a "Jughead" class nuclear bomb had a 15 megaton yield. An explosion that size, even underground, would have wiped out most, if not all, of the island.


[/SIZE][/FONT]
If you look at pictures/video of underground nuclear tests, on the surface the ground implodes leaving a concave implosion--similar to that of the aftereffect of the Swan station.[I]

Here is some video of nuclear underground tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jfaXSFfGQ&feature=related



What you see is not an "implosion" but is, in fact, the ground collapsing due to the nuclear explosion creating a rather large, empty space beneath the surface.

Exactly where is Jughead located? The location of the Army camp is very familiar, could it be where the Losties first played golf (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=16730&fullsize=1)? Or Heard the French transmission?

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/c3dbbc9d0815d89895a1c4ed67ccd2c7
http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/26159fbd150bd9768be60bd082eb50ee

They were chased off the beach and they were supposed to meet at the creek. They weren't anywhere near the Orchid.

http://gohawaii.about.com/od/oahuactivities/ss/lost_locations_3.htm
http://gohawaii.about.com/od/oahuactivities/ss/lost_locations_10.htm

http://www.vakaruge.com/temp/LOST/Lost-Island.jpg

It seemed pretty obvious from the mention of covering it in concrete, it must be inside the hatch. Hell it apeared to be hanging over a hatch entrance or something!

Concerning the theory that the Swan held the bomb, there is a lot of evidence for this. The hatch is so big and deep that it appears designed to contain a bomb. It is per se a bunker. Second, it is concrete, and Farraday's mention of concrete seems to tie it in.

This is a simple and elegant tie-in by the writers. I don't buy a lot of the more complex theories on this thread, as well-thought-out as they are.

I also agree that since the Hatch imploded, the bomb also imploded, rather than exploded. In short, the failsafe key was designed as a last resort to prevent the bomb from the destroying the island. So, it is either driven deeper into the island or, more likely, harmlessly explodes.

The problem with this theory is that it doesn't jive well with the hatch being designed to prevent overwhelming electromagnetic energy from wrecking the island. We know that Dez failing to push the button during the Kelvin scene caused 815 to come down.

Exactly where is Jughead located? The location of the Army camp is very familiar, could it be where the Losties first played golf (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=16730&fullsize=1)? Or Heard the French transmission?

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/c3dbbc9d0815d89895a1c4ed67ccd2c7
http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/26159fbd150bd9768be60bd082eb50ee

They were chased off the beach and they were supposed to meet at the creek. They weren't anywhere near the Orchid.

http://gohawaii.about.com/od/oahuactivities/ss/lost_locations_3.htm
http://gohawaii.about.com/od/oahuactivities/ss/lost_locations_10.htm

http://www.vakaruge.com/temp/LOST/Lost-Island.jpg
So, I wanted to take your questions over to the Island Map thread (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=60129). I know it is old though - is it worth it? Here is the link to the most amazing map (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/jonahadkins/theisland.png), done by jonahadkins, but it hasn't been updated in a long time that I know of. (Thanks for storing that in the library Sam, it was the only place I could find it.)

The thing that gets me about the location of Jughead as compared to the location of the Swan is that the Swan is in the jungle. Jughead is in a clearing. Would 50 years of growth even have looked like that? I don't think so, but I don't really know. That being said, I also don't think Jughead was right at Richard's camp, as Daniel was first death-marched "through the jungle" to get to it.

Also, Richard has "always" been in this location. Do we have any other screen shots of this from other episodes? This wouldn't be where New Otherton is, I don't think.

Funny you ask about the jungle, I know I bookmarked a page that shows this IRL in relation to WWII, let me see if I can find it.

Tropical jungles grow very fast. Bamboo grows even faster.

http://www.pfweb.com/plf-usmc/WorldsAway.htm


Excerpts from different things I've read.
The Ledo Road was an almost completely futile effort, of no military value at the time, undertaken only to please a whim of China's Chiang Kai-shek, says Koerner. "Americans abandoned the road, quite literally, on V-J day," he notes, and by the next year the jungle had already overgrown much of it.

THat is a nice map, the best one I've seen so far, though still fan made and not one hundred percent on any location.

Really though, wouldn't Richard and the others move the bomb as far from them as possible? It doesn't make sense to me that a group of people would bury the bomb close to where they lived (temple) or places they would frequent.

After coming across the comment Des made to Locke in LTDA, in my other post, and thinking about Kelvin's comment about blowing the damn, it makes sense to me that the Jughead bomb was tied to the Swan Failsafe. Let's not doubt the capabilities of an old society when it comes to moving, digging or building. The Eqyptians built the pyramids with out cranes or excavators. I think it's possible for the others to transport the bomb and bury it in the vicinity of where the Swan would eventually sit.

Yes, but we don't know where the temple is do we?

Richard said they took over the Army camp.

RICHARD: Whatever your, uh, your superiors told you, I want you to know the truth. A month ago, we found 18 members of an Army battalion right here in our jungle here, setting up this camp. We gave them the opportunity to leave the island peacefully. They weren't willing to do that, so I was forced to kill 'em. All of 'em.

Thanks Sam. That information is really helpful.
THat is a nice map, the best one I've seen so far, though still fan made and not one hundred percent on any location.
Yeah, I know. This doesn't relate directly to your point, but I wanted to address the general statements that the writers wouldn't necessarily have thought about the location of the Swan on the island when creating this episode. And I disagree, knowing that the island map is one of their most fervently kept secrets. If Jughead is under the Swan, then they intended that Richard's people moved it.

Isn't it possible that the Swan had BOTH EM and Radiation? The concrete held in the radiation, the EM is from the failsafe that is used to shift out the bomb.

I see so many arguments based on one or the other...


And Implode/Explode? MAN! 3 people survived! The hatch had to be transported out. The lights, Desmond's new time issues... Everything says it was shifted out, how come that is not being accepted by people?

Vaughn

It made sense to me that the Swan Station would be time shifted out when the fail safe key was turned.

It took the things that were part of it's time with it and tossed out everything that didn't belong there.

JULIET: I guess whatever we had with us when we moved is along for the ride.

So, I wanted to take your questions over to the Island Map thread (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=60129). I know it is old though - is it worth it? Here is the link to the most amazing map (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/jonahadkins/theisland.png), done by jonahadkins, but it hasn't been updated in a long time that I know of. (Thanks for storing that in the library Sam, it was the only place I could find it.)

The thing that gets me about the location of Jughead as compared to the location of the Swan is that the Swan is in the jungle. Jughead is in a clearing. Would 50 years of growth even have looked like that? I don't think so, but I don't really know. That being said, I also don't think Jughead was right at Richard's camp, as Daniel was first death-marched "through the jungle" to get to it.

Also, Richard has "always" been in this location. Do we have any other screen shots of this from other episodes? This wouldn't be where New Otherton is, I don't think.

Jenny, I took it over there, we'll see what happens.

Isn't it possible that the Swan had BOTH EM and Radiation? The concrete held in the radiation, the EM is from the failsafe that is used to shift out the bomb.

I see so many arguments based on one or the other...


And Implode/Explode? MAN! 3 people survived! The hatch had to be transported out. The lights, Desmond's new time issues... Everything says it was shifted out, how come that is not being accepted by people?

Vaughn

Radiation, or X-rays are a form of electromagnetism, they aren't independent.

I think the bomb *has* to be buried under the Swan. We were told way back in season 2 that something was buried there, encased in concrete so thick Sayid hadn't heard of anything like it since Chernobyl. That screams nuclear activity to me. Then, voila, in Season 5 we see a nuclear bomb? Of course that is what is under the Swan.

The puzzling parts are what DHARMA was doing there. I mean, why did they build the Swan over that area? Surely Widmore knew it was there. The trick is figuring out how the bomb and the Swan relate. The level of magnetism coming from the Swan doesn't really have anything to do with the bomb itself. Perhaps, as people have said here, it comes from something encasing the bomb? I also am unsure what happened to the bomb when the Swan imploded at the end of Season 2. Surely, if it had exploded it would have destroyed most of the island, if not all of it. And I don't know what would happen to *this* island if it exploded. With all that exotic matter, I imagine it wouldn't be good. Perhaps it was pushed further underground as others have guessed.

Anyway, yes, I think it is under the Swan, for sure.

I think the bomb *has* to be buried under the Swan. We were told way back in season 2 that something was buried there, encased in concrete so thick Sayid hadn't heard of anything like it since Chernobyl. That screams nuclear activity to me. Then, voila, in Season 5 we see a nuclear bomb? Of course that is what is under the Swan.

The puzzling parts are what DHARMA was doing there. I mean, why did they build the Swan over that area? Surely Widmore knew it was there. The trick is figuring out how the bomb and the Swan relate. The level of magnetism coming from the Swan doesn't really have anything to do with the bomb itself. Perhaps, as people have said here, it comes from something encasing the bomb? I also am unsure what happened to the bomb when the Swan imploded at the end of Season 2. Surely, if it had exploded it would have destroyed most of the island, if not all of it. And I don't know what would happen to *this* island if it exploded. With all that exotic matter, I imagine it wouldn't be good. Perhaps it was pushed further underground as others have guessed.

Anyway, yes, I think it is under the Swan, for sure.

Or it moved in time.

The thing that gets me about the location of Jughead as compared to the location of the Swan is that the Swan is in the jungle. Jughead is in a clearing. Would 50 years of growth even have looked like that? I don't think so, but I don't really know. That being said, I also don't think Jughead was right at Richard's camp, as Daniel was first death-marched "through the jungle" to get to it.

Actually they're not too far away. When they time skip and Richard's camp disappears, we can see all the time skippers in one screen shot. It seems like Dan was maybe 30 yards from Charlotte and Miles.

I think the bomb *has* to be buried under the Swan. We were told way back in season 2 that something was buried there, encased in concrete so thick Sayid hadn't heard of anything like it since Chernobyl. That screams nuclear activity to me. Then, voila, in Season 5 we see a nuclear bomb? Of course that is what is under the Swan.

I was wondering when we were told in Season 2 that something was buried at the Swan? I read the transcript for "Everybody Hates Hugo", and Sayid never says anything to Jack about something being buried there. He comments that the concrete is just as thick below the Swan as above. He "guesses" that there is a geothermal generator behind the wall providing the power, but I can't find anything that mentions something being buried there.

However, something else that does suggest the bomb being buried at the Swan is the presence of a geiger counter.

Well, we infer that something is buried there. The Swan itself is underground. All that concrete is poured underground. So, perhaps it is just buried *next* to the Swan. But, it seems pretty obvious that all this concrete in the vicinity of the Swan is encasing this bomb.

Well, we infer that something is buried there. The Swan itself is underground. All that concrete is poured underground. So, perhaps it is just buried *next* to the Swan. But, it seems pretty obvious that all this concrete in the vicinity of the Swan is encasing this bomb.

Or the concrete could just be doing what we've been told it was doing, blocking the EM radiation. Afterall, we know for sure that there was an incredibly strong electromagnetic force emanating from where the concrete was, enough to bring 815 to a crash on the Island.

There is some circumstantial evidence suggesting the H bomb was buried at the Swan, but it's certainly not definitive yet.

ETA: After "The Lie" many people were guessing that the people who were going to cut off Juliet's hand were Australian, or British soldiers because of the accent, the uniforms and the guns. People also thought there were 2 different groups, ones who shot the flaming arrows and these people with the guns. However, an episode later, we find out this wasn't the case because we were given more information. This could be the case with the Swan and the H bomb.

Sayid: The last time I heard of concrete being poured over everything in this way was Chernobyl.

Since They saw the wall above and also went down through the vents and the wall was below, I'd say whatever is there is buried pretty deep.

These's are just questions.
So what else could a big electro magnet be doing, what was it's purpose? Why would it be so important to keep pushing the button?

Ah, yes, and the geiger counter, the same kind that Locke had in his room when he was telling Helen on the phone that he was planning his Walkabout.

.Sayid: The last time I heard of concrete being poured over everything in this way was Chernobyl.

Since They saw the wall above and also went down through the vents and the wall was below, I'd say whatever is there is buried pretty deep.

These's are just questions.
So what else could a big electro magnet be doing, what was it's purpose? Why would it be so important to keep pushing the button?

Ah, yes, and the geiger counter, the same kind that Locke had in his room when he was telling Helen on the phone that he was planning his Walkabout.

That's a good quote. Something the average t.v. fan would likely forget, but which seems like a reasonable set-up line for the Swan being built over/near the Jughead bomb. They have said that they set up things early in seasons one and two and that a lot of these larger land marks have been part of the landscape from the beginning.

Also Desmond from LDTA: DESMOND: It would take an atom bomb, brother. Tell him not to bother. Not to be a broken record, (you can't make a record if you ain't got nothin' to say :cool:) I think that statemnet is also indicative of the Jughead bomb being under or in close proximity to the Swan.

This is the first I've heard of the geiger counter in the Swan, but that ties in nicely as well.

Thanks Sam. That information is really helpful.

Yeah, I know. This doesn't relate directly to your point, but I wanted to address the general statements that the writers wouldn't necessarily have thought about the location of the Swan on the island when creating this episode. And I disagree, knowing that the island map is one of their most fervently kept secrets. If Jughead is under the Swan, then they intended that Richard's people moved it.

Best map I've seen, still doesn't mean I think it's a good or accurate map. There's alot out there that are just ridiculous.

That's been one of my biggest questions as the episodes started passing, when are we going to get an official map? Even a map in progress would be nice. Trying to solicit Gregg Nations on here for at least confirmation that an accurate island map exists has fallen on deaf ears. :confused:

I'm holding out hope that there'll be something on the season five DVDs, a featurette or an insert or something. I think an accurate island map would help in speculation and give us better bearings on situations and events.

Perhaps that's why we haven't gotten one yet. :JC_thinking: :cool:

Concerning the theory that the Swan held the bomb, there is a lot of evidence for this. The hatch is so big and deep that it appears designed to contain a bomb. It is per se a bunker. Second, it is concrete, and Farraday's mention of concrete seems to tie it in.

This is a simple and elegant tie-in by the writers. I don't buy a lot of the more complex theories on this thread, as well-thought-out as they are.

I also agree that since the Hatch imploded, the bomb also imploded, rather than exploded. In short, the failsafe key was designed as a last resort to prevent the bomb from the destroying the island. So, it is either driven deeper into the island or, more likely, harmlessly explodes.

The problem with this theory is that it doesn't jive well with the hatch being designed to prevent overwhelming electromagnetic energy from wrecking the island. We know that Dez failing to push the button during the Kelvin scene caused 815 to come down.

I'm in agreement with 99% of what you've said here since I'm a proponent of the Swan being where the bomb is (or was) housed.

The one thing i don't agree on is the fact that we all seem to think Desmond brought down flight 815. The only reason we think this is because Desmond said it. This is all the proof we have and in my mind it's not completely solid enough. Desmond may think the reason (via Kelvin) that they are pushing the button in order to save the planet is because of unique electromagnetic properties. But is it really?

The one sure thing we know about Kelvin is his mastery of manipulating minds to get what is needed (the Iraq/Desert Storm/Sayid encounter). We also know that Kelvin was part of some dark U.S. government ties (via his involvement in Desert Storm). If anyone had a reason to cover up an American nuclear bomb being unaccounted for it is possbily Kelvin. He claimed to come to the island to "Save the world". Saving the world might not exactly mean keeping the one single bomb from going off but possibly the implications around the world if that bomb did go off.

Also I might add we also know for a fact that Kelvin lied to Desmond about the island having properties that require one to wear a full-on suit of protection once you leave the Swan. Maybe that's not the only thing Kelvin was lying about?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4301690.html - Popular Mechanics on Jughead

We have several things that point to Desmond being correct in his assessment that he brought Flight 815 down.

1) We see what happens in the hatch when he doesn't press the button (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1085-997.html) metal things start flying around

2) We have the print out from the Pearl (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1085-1009.html)

3)Penny's guys were able to detect the anomaly (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=71537&fullsize=1)

Whatever pushing the button did, it seems not pushing it made the anomaly visible, if you are looking for it.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=47077&fullsize=1 yellow Geiger counter where Desmond is reaching.

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/SamG1/?action=view&current=Lockesapt.jpg - Geiger counter by the teapot

Ah, yes, and the geiger counter, the same kind that Locke had in his room when he was telling Helen on the phone that he was planning his Walkabout.

Why did Locke have a geiger counter in his room?


The one sure thing we know about Kelvin is his mastery of manipulating minds to get what is needed (the Iraq/Desert Storm/Sayid encounter). We also know that Kelvin was part of some dark U.S. government ties (via his involvement in Desert Storm). If anyone had a reason to cover up an American nuclear bomb being unaccounted for it is possbily Kelvin.

Good point. Perhaps Kelvin heard about the island (and the bomb) from Sam Austen, who he served with in Iraq. When Kate went to visit Sam, he was wearing a patch on his jacket suggesting that he had served in the sixth US Army division, which was based in Ausrtalia during WW2. I have a feeling that Sam is one of several Lostaway parents who have been to the island previously.

Thanks for the pics Sam. I wonder why I missed it at Locke's place, he's got it so neat inside;)

Good point. Perhaps Kelvin heard about the island (and the bomb) from Sam Austen, who he served with in Iraq. When Kate went to visit Sam, he was wearing a patch on his jacket suggesting that he had served in the sixth US Army division, which was based in Ausrtalia during WW2. I have a feeling that Sam is one of several Lostaway parents who have been to the island previously.

Sam Austen is a little too young to have served in WWII is he?

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sam_Austen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_United_States_Army - Active 1943-1994 reactivated 2007

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=53391&fullsize=1
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=53446&fullsize=1
http://www.kelticklankirk.com/RECRUITING_LIBERTY_BELL.jpg

The one thing i don't agree on is the fact that we all seem to think Desmond brought down flight 815. The only reason we think this is because Desmond said it. This is all the proof we have and in my mind it's not completely solid enough. Desmond may think the reason (via Kelvin) that they are pushing the button in order to save the planet is because of unique electromagnetic properties. But is it really?

This is from S3 Blu Ray Access Granted:

Damon Lindelof: Desmond David Hume is solely responsible for the crash of Flight 815.

Carlton Cuse: He quit pushing the button, and the electromagnetic forces that built up as a result of him not pushing the button fried the instrumentation on the plane, and caused the plane to become unstable, split in two and plunge to our Island.

.That's been one of my biggest questions as the episodes started passing, when are we going to get an official map? Even a map in progress would be nice. Trying to solicit Gregg Nations on here for at least confirmation that an accurate island map exists has fallen on deaf ears. :confused:
I really do think that Gregg has said there is an island map that they use when writing. It would be hard to search for this, though, as the search function on this site doesn't accept 3 letter search terms. BTW, he has said he is going to try to answer questions again now that radio silence is over.

Good to know. I'll have to re-ask him.

BTW, he has said he is going to try to answer questions again now that radio silence is over.Hopefully he picks up where he left off... There's a whole season without any Gregg Nations obfuscation!

Haha, not really! He just posted the sentence "Disco Jellyfish" in the Leaggue of Nations group thread. There MUST be a hidden meaning there. And now, back to your regularly scheduled conversation about Jughead. :)

Something about the whole discussion about having to bury the bomb with lots of concrete made me think the original purpose of the Swan station may be the Jughead.

Sayid investigated the Swan and told Jack about how much concrete was there.

Kelvin may have been lying about electromagnetic properties to Desmond. Not to say the magnetic properties didn't exist but that they were not the REAL reason. Possibly magnetic properties thwarts the radioactivity? I don't know, not a scientist here. Kelvin did say when drunk that by turning the failsafe key that "all this" goes away.

Remember Kelvin was CIA or some such USA intelligence operative before becoming the button pusher. The bomb was certainly USA made.

Just wondering out loud.

Possible.. but I personally dont think the bomb was buried anywhere near the Swan.
But I really like you're thinking.

Pardon me if this is a repeat as i have not read this thread over the last two days but in Season 4 when Desmond is jumping in time because he lacks a constant, Daniel said that the side effects can happen to someone that was exposed to electromagnetism OR radiation. So even then they were allowing for the Swan to perhaps be the location of a hydrogen bomb.

I think "Enchanter" nailed it with the thread in the General theories section.
http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=106673

Turning the Fail Safe and the timer expiring were not meant to be done at the same time. It was just a coincidence that we witnessed it together. Great theory.

So, after 153 responses we've determined that Jughead is an atomic bomb.

I still think it's under the original Swan station but possibly not the reason for the Swan.

We shall all watch and see. :)

So, after 153 responses we've determined that Jughead is an atomic bomb.

I still think it's under the original Swan station but possibly not the reason for the Swan.

We shall all watch and see. :)

Yeah, could be in the Swan, Sayid's statement about the concrete certainly fits, but i thought that concrete was to contain the electromagnetic radiation, which by the looks of the swan implosion and the time traveling is far more prolific.

I think that Jughead might have been a red hearing, something put in to make us wonder that has no relevance at all. I can't figure how a nuclear bomb would fit into this story, seems like they already had enough potential disasters to deal with.

I have a question:

Who took care of the US Military? How were they effectively eliminated from the Island sweepstakes?

We have to remember that in 1954, the US military - who's contacts certainly must have been as far reaching as to the upper echelons of government - were aware of the Island and moreover, were aware that they have an undetonated property of theirs that were in the hands of some adversarial 'hostile' faction on said island. Was the military presence there for the Island? Or did they just simply want to recover Jughead - their earlier version of a "broken arrow"?

In any event, the US military is a force to be reckoned with and one with seemingly unlimited resources at their disposal to see their objectives through. And one thing that seems to be implied in the Jughead episode: the military WANTS their nuclear weapon back. About the only reasons why the US military would back off or dismiss their designs on the island is if those objectives obviously are completed or obviously unattainable. Something had to have happened with Jughead, at least from the perspective of the US military in 1954.

Why is this fact important? Because, as we know, we have had heard NOTHING in regards to them still being present and sniffing around for the Island in the present day. We only know of Widmore trying to locate the Island - and the Others of Ben's time seem only concerned with just him and the Losties infiltrating their Island.

So why is there no longer any threat of the US military?
Perhaps the simplest explanation would be that the reason for them being there in the first place was taken away from them:

1. Jughead could ultimately have been detonated and consequently render the Island of non-interest to the military due to the spread of radiation. Bomb is gone, the Island is of no use - and hence, the military leaves and is never heard from again. There could be a plethora of interpretations for this kind of scenario. Alpert and the 1954 Others may have had the means to shelter themselves from the fallout. A means that could have sustained their survival on the Island for however long it took. Perhaps allowing the bomb to detonate may very well have been their strategy once and for all to let the Island be rid of the US military threat. Another interpretation is that the bomb itself was detonated in the process of the hostiles using it against the military. Giving them a taste of their own medicine. The aftermath, again, results in massive radioactive fallout that the military is content to cease operations in regards to the Island and the issue of their 'broken arrow' has been resolved.

As a result of the lasting nuclear fallout, maybe by the time Dharma reaches the Island, there is still lingering pockets of radiation on parts of it. Say, perhaps in the surveyed area where the DI knows there is bountiful electromagnetic energy for them to harness. But in order to carry out their studies, they have to implement standard biohazard protocols as far as the Swan station is concerned. The inhabitants have to be quarantined from the outside of the facility and whenever they ventured out, they were required to wear hazmat suits.

2. The 1954 Others could have made it appear that Jughead had been detonated. One way to mimic this and "put on a show" for the US military is to implement use of the frozen donkey wheel. As we know, the spectacular event and the breathtaking disappearance of the island as a result of this action might seem to an outside observer to be like an atomic blast that literally blew the Island to smithereens. No more bomb, no more Island, case closed. No more US military threat and interference from here on out. If this scenario were at all plausible, maybe it was Widmore that had to do the same thing that Ben did and turn the wheel. It would certainly explain, perhaps, how Widmore got separated from the Island. Meanwhile, with the US military threat neutralized, Alpert is now only left with the problem of how to dispose of the Jughead bomb. And I suppose from this point on, any of the number of theories put forth in the preceding posts could explain what ultimately became of the hydrogen bomb.

In closing, I may not have come forth with any substantial theory as to whether the hydrogen bomb actually is related to the Swan station or not. But, I did want to point out that there is still the US Military factor that has to be considered and the fact that they too have designs on the bomb and somehow they are out of the picture in terms of being a continued threat to the Island in future (present) times. So, given this kind of mitigating criteria to consider, there could be a possibility that Jughead doesn't necessarily have to mean that it is related to the Swan station at all. The fate and ultimate disposition of this bomb could have been something entirely different.

How do we know the military knows where the island is? Couldn't the soldiers and bomb have gotten to the island the same way Danielle, Desmond, Yemi, & the Black Rock got there?

It seems like Richard and his people killed all the military that were on the island after they refused to leave.

RICHARD: We didn't start this, friend. Your people attacked us. You come to our island to run your tests, you fire on us, and what, you expect us not to defend ourselves?
FARADAY: I don't know anything about that. We are scientists.
ALPERT: So what? So they sent you here to recover it?
FARADAY: If you mean our hydrogen bomb, then yes. And I'm guessing from this man's radiation burns that the housing has been compromised. Is that right?

Richard assumes Faraday was sent to recover the bomb.


RICHARD: Whatever your, uh, your superiors told you, I want you to know the truth. A month ago, we found 18 members of an Army battalion right here in our jungle here, setting up this camp. We gave them the opportunity to leave the island peacefully. They weren't willing to do that, so I was forced to kill 'em. All of 'em.

Hmmm, I don't know if I'm completely on board with the H-bomb being under the Swan but I had a couple of ideas from reading everyone's posts.

Let's assume the H-bomb was hauled off into the jungle, put in a deep hole and then surrounded in the concrete. Why would the DI build the Swan station on top of it? We know the DI is exploring 'time-travel', what if they built the Swan on top of the H-bomb and - utilizing the island's unique properties - created a contained time-loop around it.

Why would they do this? Perhaps someone determines that the H-bomb is going to go off on 'x' date before the Swan is built. They use their knowledge of the time-warping properties of the island to create a time-loop around the exploding h-bomb. Every 108 minutes the time-loop needs to be reset so the H-bomb keeps 'skipping' back 107 minutes before it explodes.

I haven't thought much into what happens when Desmond turns the fail-safe though. Maybe, because the bomb was supposed to go off but in the future we know it didn't go off a paradox would have been created and it simply ceased to exist? Bah, don't like that.

I don't know why I didn't mention this before. You know that map Kelvin was painting? Remember what he was painting it on? That's right a "blast door" i wouldn't think magnetism no matter how powerful would need a blast door. Desmond even said to Locke while locked down inside the swan that even an atomic explosion wouldn't get through those doors (said this because of Eko threatening to blow the doors with dynamite).

So the only thing potentially connecting Jughead and the Swan station is concrete? The radiation is not related because plutonium does not give off electromagnetic radiation (certainly not to the extent we see in the Swan station). Also, Daniel tells them to use concrete or lead. I think it's a lot more likely that the Others have lead (for example melting down bullets from the soldiers) than they would have concrete.

The Swan station was built by Dharma years after 1954. Do we think that they just happened to build a station where the Others had buried a nuke with concrete they didn't have. I think it's much more likely that there are some properties of the island that Dharma discovered there and that's why they located the station there (similar to the Orchid).

I agree that the writer don't have any throw-away plot points, but that doesn't mean that jughead relates to something we've already seen. It could relate to something or a development that hasn't happened yet in our story.

I don't know why I didn't mention this before. You know that map Kelvin was painting? Remember what he was painting it on? That's right a "blast door" i wouldn't think magnetism no matter how powerful would need a blast door. Desmond even said to Locke while locked down inside the swan that even an atomic explosion wouldn't get through those doors (said this because of Eko threatening to blow the doors with dynamite).

I reached that conclusion too, I don't know if it was this thread or another, but I came across that line while looking for Sayid's chernobyl comment. The Swan essentially had a drop down bomb shelter intergrated into it. Most probably not for EM radiaton.

So the only thing potentially connecting Jughead and the Swan station is concrete?.....
....but that doesn't mean that jughead relates to something we've already seen. It could relate to something or a development that hasn't happened yet in our story.

Where did that the force come from to "Blow the dam up" to paraphrase Kelvin? I think the Jughead bomb, buried deep under ground, was rigged to the failsafe of the Swan. It has to be in this thread, Sam G had a link to a pics of a geiger counter that was in the Swan. With all the concrete and the comment from Sayid about Chernobyl, and Desmond about it taking an atomic bomb to blow open the blast doors, I think it's more than reasonable to assume that the Swan was built in close proximity to the Jughead bomb.

With Widmore seemingly an investor in the Dharma Initiative, and also making an appearance on the island with the bomb, I think it's even possible that Jughead didn't have to be buried near the Swan.

The DI punched a hole in the source of the EM, causing it to leak out and the protocol of button pushing to be established in the Swan. Widmore could have directed them to where the bomb was buried in order to use it in the Swan as a failsafe, since the build of EM had to be released.

At that point the Swan ceases to be whatever it was originally intended to be and becomes a release valve. They move an unstable, leaking Jughead bomb in concrete or lead (assuming Richard and the others had that at their disposable, we never got an answer on that) and they re-bury it in the depths of the Swan. They then wall up any and all openings to the room/chamber of the Swan that leads to the bomb.

I think the bomb relates the Des turning the failsafe key personally. Though if that's not it, I think it will come into play at some point.

.The Swan station was built by Dharma years after 1954. Do we think that they just happened to build a station where the Others had buried a nuke with concrete they didn't have. I think it's much more likely that there are some properties of the island that Dharma discovered there and that's why they located the station there (similar to the Orchid).

So far as we know the others may not have buried the Jughead as Faraday told them to do. They could have just left it there and stayed way clear of it. We do know that the others didn't like being near the Swan area. They (others) could have just waited until Dharma arrived and buried the Jughead at (or under) the Swan station. Seems plausible to me.

Where did that the force come from to "Blow the dam up" to paraphrase Kelvin? I think the Jughead bomb, buried deep under ground, was rigged to the failsafe of the Swan. It has to be in this thread, Sam G had a link to a pics of a geiger counter that was in the Swan. With all the concrete and the comment from Sayid about Chernobyl, and Desmond about it taking an atomic bomb to blow open the blast doors, I think it's more than reasonable to assume that the Swan was built in close proximity to the Jughead bomb.

Well, there was also a geiger counter in Locke's room that I believe Sam G also had pics for. So using the same logic, I guess there was a bomb close to Locke's room too?;)

Possibly. He was after all an angry, frustrated, guy at that point. Could have kept it in his bathtub, dreaming of the day he brought it in to work to detonate in Randy's office.

Why I lean towards the bomb being tied to the failsafe is the question of the power it took to destroy the Swan, to seal the leak permanently. I think we'll see either way or get an explanation on it. I don't think you bring a Hydrogen Bomb into the show for shock value on one episode

Possibly. He was after all an angry, frustrated, guy at that point. Could have kept it in his bathtub, dreaming of the day he brought it in to work to detonate in Randy's office.

Why I lean towards the bomb being tied to the failsafe is the question of the power it took to destroy the Swan, to seal the leak permanently. I think we'll see either way or get an explanation on it. I don't think you bring a Hydrogen Bomb into the show for shock value on one episode

LOL, yes too true, Locke certainly wasn't a happy camper at that point.

I agree, we'll see Jughead again.

There are good points for Jughead being at the Swan and against it being at the Swan. I'm leaning against it being at the Swan, but I'm not committed to it!:biggrin:

I think we shall see real soon since Radzinski is designing the swan now. Also Swayer's comments to Richard "so... did you bury it yet?" Richard did not answer.

The Jughead will come into play again soon.

I fugure the same thing, Bill. Whether are not they yse the Swan to bury it, especially knowing that the DI and Natives are at loggerheads seems more and more a very remote possibility.

Follow The Leader (1977)

ELOISE: All right then, I'll take you to the bomb. Just... one small issue, however. We secured it over 20 years ago underground. But since that time, it appears that someone's built an entire village over it.

The Swan hatch still hasn't been built.

Do they take Jughead to the Swan Hatch to blow it up and something goes wrong and it doesn't detonate but leaks radiation?

This is the one of the main questions I have about the bomb and where the Swan is - how're they gonna get the bomb to the site, if that's what they're going to do?? Is there a tunnel from the underground tunnels that comes out somewhere in the vicinity of the Swan site??

'You've got to lift it up, brotha' :)

I think Jack gets Ra and Ellie's help to lift the bomb through the tunnels to the swan. Possibly using Smokey!

A big well done to so many who caught this so early-it would appear you were correct!!