Eloise Hawking/Farraday says this to Jack, as she explains that this very clever man figured out the regularities of the movements of the island.

==> she says "Why do you think you were never rescued?", which implies that the island must have moved after the Losties crashed and also BEFORE Ben moved it manually.

well, did we miss something in earlier/older episodes?
but I have never seen any kind of this bright flash in earlier episodes that would suggest the island moved back then.
and neither seemed the Losties to know about this flash when we saw it as Ben moved the island, so it hasn't happened before.

That brings me to the conclusion that this argument of Ms. Hawking/Farraday (they haven't been found and rescued b/c the island moves over and over again) is bogus.

I think she was referring to the island moving in space, which it probably always does. The movements we have witnessed are those through time.

The island might not flash when it moves itself. Only when manually moved. When the freighter was about to destroy the island, it may not have been scheduled to move for a while and needed to be moved manually. Thus the need for the FDW. I don't know.

I don't think it was bogus at all. Remember the payload that Daniel had the freighter send him that arrived much later than it should have? The island seems to always be somehow out of synch with time, likes its riding a parallel train track to the rest of the world but it can slow down or speed up as it needs. The dead doctor from the freighter washed up before he died. Desmond's first contact after landing on the freighter was the same day they landed (I think) but the folks on the beach were waiting forever for word and actually called the freighter's operator several times about it. Anyone traveling through the 'shell' around the island began suffering from Temporal Distortion.

To me, those cases all point toward the island -always- traveling through time, which is how it cannot be found traditionally except during windows. It seems that the FDW is a manual override to this traveling that forces the island to move again, even if it isn't "ready" yet. It was Ben's last resort to get away from the freighter.

I think she was referring to the island moving in space, which it probably always does. The movements we have witnessed are those through time.
yes, I did mean that. movement in space

The island might not flash when it moves itself. Only when manually moved. When the freighter was about to destroy the island, it may not have been scheduled to move for a while and needed to be moved manually. Thus the need for the FDW. I don't know.
The island only flashes if manually moved? Well, I don't know, but that would be a lame explanation for me :D

If the island had always moved through time than the Losties would have bumped into members of the Dharma Initiative during the first four seasons sooner or later. The sky only flashes when it moves through time. At least that's what I think and I'm sticking to it. Hawking was referring to movements through space.

==> she says "Why do you think you were never rescued?", which implies that the island must have moved after the Losties crashed and also BEFORE Ben moved it manually.

That brings me to the conclusion that this argument of Ms. Hawking/Farraday (they haven't been found and rescued b/c the island moves over and over again) is bogus.
She doesn't say that the Island "can be moved" she says "it moves." Not because of FDW but b/c of it's inate electromagnetism. The movement she's speaking of is why it's near impossible to find...why it took Widmore twenty years to do so. Why do you doubt that?

The 815 crash happened upon one of these windows Hawking was talking about coupled with the "system failure" that resulted from Des not entering the numbers on time. It wasn't your everyday crash on some weird but locatable Island.


To me, those cases all point toward the island -always- traveling through time, which is how it cannot be found traditionally except during windows. It seems that the FDW is a manual override to this traveling that forces the island to move again, even if it isn't "ready" yet. It was Ben's last resort to get away from the freighter.
That's how it appears to me.
The island only flashes if manually moved? Well, I don't know, but that would be a lame explanation for me :D
The flashes were explained last week...the FDW, seperate subject. The wheel went off axis and the back and forth banging we saw was the cause of the back and forth jumping....Locke pushes the wheel back on axis and there are no more flashes.

I thought it was a stupid comment and I don't know why it was written. We already had the explanation of why they weren't rescued in season 1. The rescue team were looking in the wrong place due to having inaccurate information. Then later in the show, we are informed that a dummy plane was discovered. Thus there are 2 very good reasons they didn't get rescued.

So for her to come out with this, like it's a revelation, is nonsensical. I so wanted Jack to stop her and say "Actually, we already have 2 reasons why we weren't rescued, we don't need your patronizing drivel as well."

she said that the island is always moving.

The sky only flashes when it moves through time..But when Ben moves the island in space, the sky flashes also

She doesn't say that the Island "can be moved" she says "it moves." Not because of FDW but b/c of it's inate electromagnetism. The movement she's speaking of is why it's near impossible to find...why it took Widmore twenty years to do so. Why do you doubt that?

so the island moved at the moment Oceanic815 crashed. and the plane was moved with the island, cause otherwise the could have tracked it down and found it. ok, I could accept that.

so the next time the island moved in space was when Ben did it manually. and after that the island skipped in time instead of space.

ok, I think thats the way to accept it :D

I think that the Island has moved every time the camera focuses on one of the losties eyes. :rolleyes:

I don't buy her explaination either, because if the Island is always moving:

a) Then why turn the wheel? (P. S. It was stopped when Ben pushed it, so how can it be off its axis if it only moves when pushed)

b) The freighter can't camp out for weeks on the island's doorstep and wait and hope their destruction/extraction mission works. Wouldn't they worry that the island would move in that time? Either when they were leaving it or approaching it? How would they have pinpointed its location?

c) Does that mean the island "stopped" when Des pushed the button?

d) How do you drive a submarine or air balloon to something that is constantly moving?

When the hatch blew, the sky turned purple and white (flash?) and Desmond transported through time. The island could have moved then too.

Maybe entering the numbers and pushing the button kept the island moving like an advanced FDW. And when des turned the key it stopped allowing widmore to find it.

d) How do you drive a submarine or air balloon to something that is constantly moving?

I've always believed the sub was a decoy to disguise the fact that you get to the Island via wormholes.

I've always believed the sub was a decoy to disguise the fact that you get to the Island via wormholes.

That doesn't explain why Ben and his father emerge from the submarine back in the Dharma days, though.

I think that the Island has moved every time the camera focuses on one of the losties eyes. :rolleyes:
hm, no I don't believe that. I would find that stupid.

The theory that the island moved when the plane crashed and when the hatch exploded is a good one I think.

I wrote a giant essay on this earlier and I’m assuming the ‘Lage had some server problems and went down when I posted it. Here is a theory that probably has a lot of holes, but it’s something I want to throw out there so we can beat it up.

1.The Swan Station was built to effectively discharge the buildup of exotic matter. This allowed the Island to not only stay hidden but to move safely.

2.Desmond is late in pushing the button and causes 815 to get caught in one of the windows. This brings the plane down to the island.

3.Everything is fine until Locke prevents the button from being pushed, resulting in Desmond turning the failsafe key. This causes the island to become visible and stay stationary, allowing Widmore to locate it and send the freighter team.

4.The frozen donkey wheel is turned by Ben. This is a “manual” way of moving the island, which happens, but it also has the unfortunate effect of sending certain people flashing through time.

I believe that these are people that haven’t been on the island since the plane crash or people that haven’t been on since a certain event, such as the Incident. It’s also possible, as some people have speculated, that Room 23 prevents physical time travel and that Juliet, the Freighter Folk and the 815er’s haven’t gone through it.

In response to the flashes, the only people that are experiencing the flashes are the people physically traveling through time. We’ve seen that Richard and Danielle have no idea about the flashes. I think the island still moves at the same windows that ms. hawking is using and has for a very long time. The only difference is that now the island isn't hidden. So this is unrelated to the island moving in my opinion because we would see it happen to everyone.

The more that I think about it, if the above is true, that may be the ultimate endgame of Lost. Building a new Swan Station or something to prevent people from finding the island i.e. Charles Widmore. Of course, you can sprinkle some doomsday scenarios and the like, but maybe it all boils down to protecting the island vs. using it for personal gain. Perhaps, Widmore is intent on using it to unleash some unknown disaster on the world...I don't know.

In response to the numerous balloon crashes, plane crashes and submarine. In regards to Henry Gale’s balloon and Yemi’s plane. I believe that we can chalk up those to being coincidental in regards to the island appearing. We saw evidence of that in the season premiere. The submarine is probably privy to the same information that Ms. Hawking has. It knows exactly where the island will be and can travel to it accordingly.

Of course there’s one constant through this entire post. I’m probably wrong!

4.The frozen donkey wheel is turned by Ben. This is a “manual” way of moving the island, which happens, but it also has the unfortunate effect of sending certain people flashing through time.

Jack's father said to John that the FDW slipped of its axis and that would be the reason for the flashes. He also said John had to move the island, not Ben, insinuating that if John had done it the flashes wouldn't have happened

Let's not forget about the SPECIFIC coordinates Ben told Michael to sail out at, or Frank flew his helicopter to and fro. There's a reason for those specific coords at the time. The Island, IMO, was stationary and one had to use those SPECIFIC coords to get to and from the Island. If I remember correctly, Ben gave Michael the coords before Des turned the key.

Let's not forget about the SPECIFIC coordinates Ben told Michael to sail out at, or Frank flew his helicopter to and fro. There's a reason for those specific coords at the time. The Island, IMO, was stationary and one had to use those SPECIFIC coords to get to and from the Island. If I remember correctly, Ben gave Michael the coords before Des turned the key.

Right, I agree, it takes specific coordinates to get off of the island, but once you escape the bubble of time difference who knows in what location you'll be. It's entirely plausible that the reason Michael got home so quickly was that the island had moved to a place close to LA or New York wherever he was.

I don't buy her explaination either, because if the Island is always moving:

a) Then why turn the wheel? (P. S. It was stopped when Ben pushed it, so how can it be off its axis if it only moves when pushed)
My guess would be that it's always slowly drifting. However turning the wheel was so that it would move dramatically so that Widmore's boat would loose it and the general coordinates they had would no longer be valid.


b) The freighter can't camp out for weeks on the island's doorstep and wait and hope their destruction/extraction mission works. Wouldn't they worry that the island would move in that time? Either when they were leaving it or approaching it? How would they have pinpointed its location?
The never pinpointed the location. They were searching a general area and Naomi happened to crash into it during the search. From there on, the found it by following the sat phone signal.


c) Does that mean the island "stopped" when Des pushed the button?
I don't see why it would.

d) How do you drive a submarine or air balloon to something that is constantly moving?
The balloon just happened to crash into it, like Desmond. The submarine followed the DHARMA sonar beacon.

The balloon just happened to crash into it, like Desmond. The submarine followed the DHARMA sonar beacon.

So are we supposed to believe that the beacon went out when Ben turned the wheel? Otherwise shouldn't ben and O6 be using the beacon?

So are we supposed to believe that the beacon went out when Ben turned the wheel? Otherwise shouldn't ben and O6 be using the beacon?

The beacon was being blocked by Ben and then was evidently destroyed in the Season Three finale when Charlie flooded the Looking Glass Hatch.

The beacon was being blocked by Ben and then was evidently destroyed in the Season Three finale when Charlie flooded the Looking Glass Hatch.

Didn't they say that the station will keep working even when it was flooded?

Didn't they say that the station will keep working even when it was flooded?

Possibly, I'm not sure. I don't know if they have a submarine. The submarine was apparently blown up on island and we haven't been given evidence that they have another one.

As an aside, you must be bored at work with me because we are on point in this thread!

Here's all I'm saying. You have an Island that is constantly moving (look at the pendelum and the shifting longitudes and latitudes on the wall in The Beacon), how can you possibly move a submarine, which Dharma/Others used to leave and return, out of an area that is constantly moving?

I guess the questoin is how fast is it moving? Does it land in a place in time and stop for a few moments? A few days? A few years? Or does being within the sphere of the island mean that it constantly moves at a speed that is unseen (and untouched) by the outside world (except in rare instances - Blackrock, Flight 815, etc). It sounds like the Theory of Relativity to me.

Also, I just can't get over the wheel. Was it moving very slowly when Ben pushed it? It's called the Frozen Donkey Wheel (frozen being the key proxy word for stopped), not the Thawing Donkey Wheel.

hm, no I don't believe that. I would find that stupid.

The theory that the island moved when the plane crashed and when the hatch exploded is a good one I think.

I'm sorry you would find that stupid, however, the plane crash was due to the gravitational force exerted due to Desmond not pushing the 108 button, not from the Island moving.

The hatch explosion is a possibility though.

I'm sorry you would find that stupid, however, the plane crash was due to the gravitational force exerted due to Desmond not pushing the 108 button, not from the Island moving.
maybe, the gravitational force pulled the plane into this event window, or even created it

Possibly, I'm not sure. I don't know if they have a submarine. The submarine was apparently blown up on island and we haven't been given evidence that they have another one.

As an aside, you must be bored at work with me because we are on point in this thread!

Ahh it just occurred to me... Ben was blocking communications and the sonar beacon and it was pointed out that the station will keep functioning even if it is flooded. We saw Charlie only enable communications, Maybe there was a different system for enabling sonar? That means the sonar should still be disabled. Okay it makes sense now.... Yes I'm super bored lol.

Right, I agree, it takes specific coordinates to get off of the island, but once you escape the bubble of time difference who knows in what location you'll be. It's entirely plausible that the reason Michael got home so quickly was that the island had moved to a place close to LA or New York wherever he was.

Didnt the corordinates change between Michael and Walt leaving and the Helicoopther getting to the island?

Here's all I'm saying. You have an Island that is constantly moving (look at the pendelum and the shifting longitudes and latitudes on the wall in The Beacon), how can you possibly move a submarine, which Dharma/Others used to leave and return, out of an area that is constantly moving?

I guess the questoin is how fast is it moving? Does it land in a place in time and stop for a few moments? A few days? A few years? Or does being within the sphere of the island mean that it constantly moves at a speed that is unseen (and untouched) by the outside world (except in rare instances - Blackrock, Flight 815, etc). It sounds like the Theory of Relativity to me.

Also, I just can't get over the wheel. Was it moving very slowly when Ben pushed it? It's called the Frozen Donkey Wheel (frozen being the key proxy word for stopped), not the Thawing Donkey Wheel.

Im starting to think exactly that too , that the wheel is moving very very slowely all the time, sorta how the pengelum moves ... I cant spell that..Heck the exotic matter melts drills I think it might melt a bit of ice.
MIght explain things like the doctor's time shift falling off the freighter and washing up at the beach. And Daniels rocket taking too long to reach the island.
My mind is full of conflicting stuff about it all so Im just throwing it out there for comments.

Reading this thread, I am starting to worry again. Big time.

The writers better know exactly what they are doing at this point or this show is in major trouble of collapsing. As if it wasn't before -- it is now.

Im starting to think exactly that too , that the wheel is moving very very slowely all the time, sorta how the pengelum moves ... I cant spell that..Heck the exotic matter melts drills I think it might melt a bit of ice.
MIght explain things like the doctor's time shift falling off the freighter and washing up at the beach. And Daniels rocket taking too long to reach the island.
My mind is full of conflicting stuff about it all so Im just throwing it out there for comments.
I don't think the island moves constantly as in continuously. Indeed, she says "that fellow correctly presumed that the island was always moving". I interpret the "always" as in: it always jumps to a different location in certain time-intervalls.
later she says "while the movements of the island seem random". this implies that the movement is not continuously, but discrete.
100%
Reading this thread, I am starting to worry again. Big time.

The writers better know exactly what they are doing at this point or this show is in major trouble of collapsing. As if it wasn't before -- it is now.
maybe they make it confusing intentionally, so that they want the viewer to make some sense of it, although they themselfes don't know it. like with Matrix II & III :D

That's what Ms. Hawking said right after she says that they found out that the island was ALWAYS moving...

So the island was moving even before Ben turned the wheel?:confused:



I have my own theories, but I like to hear yours first...;)

To me it seems like the island moves on its own, but it can also be manually moved, with bad side effects.

It was always moving...through space. Now its also through time. Thats the big difference.

It was always moving...through space. Now its also through time. Thats the big difference.

It couldn't have been moving through just space or everyone on that island would have noticed: inertia, acceleration, changes in the sun, the starts, etc...

And she meant TIME. She was always talking about time, not space.

If it was always moving through time...then I guess the writers would have given us plenty of clues- Im sure obvious ones that we may not realize yet. Daniels payload would be a big one, and the dead Dr washing up before he died...but then how has time travel affected them all along?

I think that the island is protected from its inhabitants experiencing the effects of inertia, acceleration, etc. Do you remember that comic book that Walt had on the island? It was a picture of the island in a sort of bubble. That's also the reason that Desmond, when he found his boat again, kept going in circles when he tried to escape the island.

But then why all the latitudes and longitudes? and the big map? confused:confused:

There HAS to be movement in space also...

the funny part is that Desmond and Danielle put the Island around the same location where Flight 815 crashed in the Pacific....

I don't know. Maybe, (and I hate to sound cliche) it's an island unto itself, meaning it is in a bubble that maintains its own time(s) while traveling through space. That might be the reason that it was day on the island and night time on the freighter when Sayid and Desmond got there, because they had gone out to the radius (bubble) of the island. It may haven't had anything to do with the island being so many hours ahead of them, maybe the island is totally on another realm. ---I don't know, but now I have a headache. (hope it's not temporal displacement!)

But then why all the latitudes and longitudes? and the big map? confused:confused:

There HAS to be movement in space also...
I agree that it moves in space also. That would explain the Beechcraft.

BUt I think it all has to do with the button, the wheel and the failsafe key. They were all related. Then we also have to remember TPTB's comments that the island was invisible and couldn't be detected by satellite, radar or whatever.

Now I believe the reason for that is because the island was being kept out of sync with the rest of the world. In other words, pushing the button kept it 108 minutes in the past, all the time.

When Des turned the key the island caught up with the rest of the world's time, becoming visible. Then it slowly started to get out of sync again, returning to its original moving state. Here is where the Donkey Wheel comes in.
I believe Dharma messed it up causing the Island to start moving in spacetime once again like it had been doing it before someone place the wheel down there.
The difference in time between the world and the island, after the destruction of the swan was becoming bigger and bigger. It's like the island was fighting to start moving again on its own....Until Ben moved the wheel setting the Island in full time travel mode.

Wow! That's good! --- I like that about the island staying 108 minutes in the past, but I thought that pushing the numbers was to keep some type of energy from exploding ---unless that's the energy that's being used for the island's time travel. ---So then when Desmond turned the fail safe key it was the last resort to keep the island from destroying itself since he couldn't do it by pushing in the numbers.

she said that the island is always moving.

Eloise must not know, or she's jumping to conclusions. We established in the first episode that they were far off course with no radio contact, so rescue planes wouldn't know where to look, regardless of whether the island moves or not. And after couple of days, they would give up looking along the original flight path and declare the plane lost. THAT'S why they were never rescued.

The writers know EXACTLY what they are doing. They are trying to throw us off a bit but dont doubt them.

I'm wondering if thats why Dharma built the swan and entered the numbers, to stop it from moving. In fact keeping it in the same location which was the numbers themselves like alot of people think. To get rid of the built up energy without the island moving. Thats why Ben wanted it destoyed, thats why the food drops stopped after the turn of the key. I dont think Eloise was being truethful about it being the reason for no rescue. We all know about the fake plane in the ocean, thats why they werent rescued, because no one was looking for them. (except Penny) An because Eloise works with Ben I'm thinking she may lie from time to time just like him. Okay Ben lies all the time but you get my meaning.

Maybe Eloise cant be trusted by our Losties? Her motives are based on the island, and probably the fact that shes with Widmore ( pretty sure about that) They werent rescued BC Widmore made damn sure they werent, but the island was still moving, that part is true

Eloise must not know, or she's jumping to conclusions. We established in the first episode that they were far off course with no radio contact, so rescue planes wouldn't know where to look, regardless of whether the island moves or not. And after couple of days, they would give up looking along the original flight path and declare the plane lost. THAT'S why they were never rescued.
maybe the flight path changed because the plane got into that eventwindow, or maybe because of the electromagnetic field that build up because Desmond didn't push the button in time

Seems to be two threads with the same title, this is what I said on the other one . . .

I'm wondering if thats why Dharma built the swan and entered the numbers, to stop it from moving. In fact keeping it in the same location which was the numbers themselves like alot of people think. To get rid of the built up energy without the island moving. Thats why Ben wanted it destoyed, thats why the food drops stopped after the turn of the key. I dont think Eloise was being truethful about it being the reason for no rescue. We all know about the fake plane in the ocean, thats why they werent rescued, because no one was looking for them. (except Penny) An because Eloise works with Ben I'm thinking she may lie from time to time just like him. Okay Ben lies all the time but you get my meaning.

Seems to be two threads with the same title, this is what I said on the other one . . .

I'm wondering if thats why Dharma built the swan and entered the numbers, to stop it from moving. In fact keeping it in the same location which was the numbers themselves like alot of people think. I think TPTB said at one point that not enterning the numbers would make the island locatable or visible for the outside world. something like that..

but as I said before, I don't think the island is always contiuously moving. It's just making big jumps to another location in certain intervalls
100%
The writers know EXACTLY what they are doing. They are trying to throw us off a bit but dont doubt them.
I am tending to think that, too. They had enough time to plot out the whole storyline until the series finale

i hated finding out the the island "moves". Hopefully when the explain it it will make sense. Maybe Desmond pushing the button keeps it moving but after that is when the freighter found them. Then they have to manually move the wheel to get it going again. Really makes no sense but hopefully we will find out more soon.

i hated finding out the the island "moves". Hopefully when the explain it it will make sense. Maybe Desmond pushing the button keeps it moving but after that is when the freighter found them. Then they have to manually move the wheel to get it going again. Really makes no sense but hopefully we will find out more soon.
yeah, I still have faith in the writers that they will get it all together in the end

if the island were always moving, how come the freighter (which was outside the island parameters) was able to stay relatively stationary and still remain close to the island?

if the island were always moving, how come the freighter (which was outside the island parameters) was able to stay relatively stationary and still remain close to the island?
exactly

I am getting confused....all the time jumping....at least I don't have a nosebleed yet!!!

This seems like a good place to ask a few things.;)

1) It sounds to me like the only way to get to the Island is through an event window....is that the only way off the Island also?

2) I do believe that the Losties on Flight 316 flashed to the Island without a plane crash...I understand that 815 crashed because of Des not pushing the Swan buttons but why did other people crash like the Beechcraft,Danielle,etc... Did they crash just bec/ they lost control of the instrument panel....if so why didn't flight 316 crash??

:confused:

I am getting confused....all the time jumping....at least I don't have a nosebleed yet!!!

This seems like a good place to ask a few things.;)

1) It sounds to me like the only way to get to the Island is through an event window....is that the only way off the Island also?

2) I do believe that the Losties on Flight 316 flashed to the Island without a plane crash...I understand that 815 crashed because of Des not pushing the Swan buttons but why did other people crash like the Beechcraft,Danielle,etc... Did they crash just bec/ they lost control of the instrument panel....if so why didn't flight 316 crash??

:confused:
Well, we still don't know if 316 crashed or not. But for some reason, I can't stop thinking that the plane might have crashed in current time for everybody except the oceanic 6.
So Ben and Locke might have ended up in the island's future of 2007/2008 while the others are stuck in the 70's. We also have to ask where are the Others if they were not time traveling with the lefties. Ben and Locke might reunite with them.


I also wonder if Flight 815 was always supposed to go through an event window that would take them straight to Dharma times, instead of 2004?
Desmond might have messed it all up by missing the timer.


OR perhaps Dharma itself messed it all up by creating the whole button pushing protocol.

It seems that the island is ALWAYS moving, right? Dharma might have stopped that natural state of the Island by establishing the button protocol. So, perhaps, if Dharma hadn't come up with that idea, flight 815 would have gone through a natural event window that would have taken the passengers to some specific moment in time for them to fulfill their destinies. It could have been 50 years ago or maybe 3000!!!

But Dharma changed all that by creating a way to stop the island from moving...

Now, course correction is trying to fix things up... HOW?

By snatching the 'players' from its current timelines and taken them all to Dharma times in order for them to stop the Incident OR stop Dharma from creating a way to prevent the island from moving....

I don't know if that makes any sense at all. Last episode left really really confused!!!!!:confused::confused:

I also wonder if Flight 815 was always supposed to go through an event window that would take them straight to Dharma times, instead of 2004?
Desmond might have messed it all up by missing the timer.

I had thought that also. The Losties need to be in that time to fulfill a certain destiny. The only person that seems as though they can change things is Desmond. Everything since then has been one big course correction.

I had thought that also. The Losties need to be in that time to fulfill a certain destiny. The only person that seems as though they can change things is Desmond. Everything since then has been one big course correction.

Last night I started to think about all this, as always, and came up with this scenario:

Let's suppose that there is a guy in this story who is just like Desmond. He can change things in the past. And he actually did change what was originally supposed to happen, messing things up. Now, the losties' roles are to, how to put it, UNDO what this guy might have already done. They can't change anything, but they can make sure that this other guy DOESN"T change things either, because, unlike them, he can.

Does that make any sense????

It couldn't have been moving through just space or everyone on that island would have noticed: inertia, acceleration, changes in the sun, the starts, etc...

And she meant TIME. She was always talking about time, not space.

I had a theory all the way back in season one involving the sun being up and down at times that didn't make sense (ie: someone takes off from the beach towards the caves in broad daylight and after a trip that they say takes 30 minutes it's pitch black when they arrive), that could be explained by the island moving through time or space.

It also involved the rain starting and stopping so suddenly, which could also tie in to the island moving to different areas of the earth.

And she meant TIME. She was always talking about time, not space.I don't think so. They landed on the island originally in 2004, and it was 2004 on the island. Juliet and Desmond arrived in 2001 (both on-island and off). Richard filmed Juliet's sister in 2004, when he was off-island, on the day of the crash. He communicated in real-time with Ben. Eventually, the O6 left for the freighter, and it was still 2004. Minor time discrepancies surrounding this have been explained with the "follow the correct heading" caveat.

I don't think the island was ever moving in time. Only the Lefties have been seen timeshifting, on account of the Donkey Wheel turning.

I had a theory all the way back in season one involving the sun being up and down at times that didn't make sense (ie: someone takes off from the beach towards the caves in broad daylight and after a trip that they say takes 30 minutes it's pitch black when they arrive), that could be explained by the island moving through time or space.

It also involved the rain starting and stopping so suddenly, which could also tie in to the island moving to different areas of the earth.

Wouldn't bizarre day/night shifts be noticed by the characters, though?

And the rain thing really is nothing out of the ordinary for a tropical island, as several people have already attested.

Wouldn't bizarre day/night shifts be noticed by the characters, though?

And the rain thing really is nothing out of the ordinary for a tropical island, as several people have already attested.

I know that very early on the fact that the rain started and stopped suddenly was mentioned on screen, but I don't have an explanation for why the characters never mentioned the differences in time of day.

It's already been said but my money is on the island moving through space before the donkey wheel was turned, then it was moving through space and time. Also, if the island moved slowly enough through space, would the whole day/night thing be noticed at all?

It's already been said but my money is on the island moving through space before the donkey wheel was turned, then it was moving through space and time. Also, if the island moved slowly enough through space, would the whole day/night thing be noticed at all?Perhaps it's not the island itself that is moving, but the "window" to get to the island. That way it would be possible to get to the island by flying over Tunisia, for example (Nigerian drug plane). And the sun wouldn't change positions any more than usual.

That would also account for the difference in the FDW moving the island, and the standard "the island is always moving" explanation.

Perhaps it's not the island itself that is moving, but the "window" to get to the island. That way it would be possible to get to the island by flying over Tunisia, for example (Nigerian drug plane). And the sun wouldn't change positions any more than usual.

That would also account for the difference in the FDW moving the island, and the standard "the island is always moving" explanation.

There is a probability of this happening as an alternative choice to the island physically moving. If the island is connected to the world via a complex wormhole what Ben did was just move the wormhole not the island. Itd be like going down the same road to work only not being able to find the building not because the buildings moved but someone moved the road.

I don't think the island was ever moving in time. Only the Lefties have been seen timeshifting, on account of the Donkey Wheel turning.

I think you're right. People here are theorizing a lot about the island moving through or beeing stuck in time, but the island itself time traveling doesn't make much sense to me. They are in Dharma days now, the 70s, so a travelling island would mean a whole 2004-island in a 70s-world (but then there would be no Dharma folks on the island) or a whole 70s-island with Dharma guys in a 2004-world. Sounds silly to me. Besides that where would be the original island of each of that points of time?

Think of it from the island's point of view, or even easier: from Richard's! He's not time travelling! From his POV there is a constant timeline and the time travelling Lefties just keep appearing now and then.

I always figured the island was moving its location, but by a pre-determed set of locations. Like a CD track listing, it will jump from location to location until it gets back to the first location again. Otherwise It could jump to a few miles off the shore of England.
But i think turning the FDW made the island move through time, which it kept doing as the wheel was off axis. Thats the only reason it flashes.

Pretty simple actually.

the funny part is that Desmond and Danielle put the Island around the same location where Flight 815 crashed in the Pacific....

We have a pretty specific location from Desmond... less than a week due east of Fiji at 12 (or 15?) knots. That puts it about half-way between Fiji and Tahiti. All we have from Danielle is that they were 3 days out of Tahiti. We don't know at what speed. And all we have from 815 is a 2-hour circle from the 6-hour flight mark from Sydney to LA, along which they believed they were flying back towards Fiji (and 2 hours would have gotten them just about there). These can all be made to indicate the same spot, the one indicated by Desmond, but it doesn't necessarily have to, and it would require that 815's compass was severely compromised. So maybe where 815 crashed was actually much closer to Fiji, and where Danielle crashed could be anywhere within 3 days of Tahiti, possibly east of Tahiti rather than west. In that case it was gradually drifting westward over those 16 years.

After the donkeywheel turn, it is now in a much different place, as it is now in the norther hemisphere, somewhere on the path between Hawaii and Guam. So it moved significantly more since the donkeywheel turn than it did in the prior 16 years. I suspect the ship that was hanging outside its radius for a week was fine because because it was such a short period of time. Remember, Daniel was going to try to find a new bearing by first determining their new position with the sextant that he took out of his pack (used for determining latitude). So the fact that the 305 bearing worked the whole time the ship was there shows that the island didn't drift much over the course of a single week.

I think TPTB said at one point that not enterning the numbers would make the island locatable or visible for the outside world. something like that.
I think they pointed out that Desmond being late entering the numbers, as well as turning the failsafe key, both created large electromagnetic anamolies that could be detected outside the island. But IIRC, I they once debunked on the podcast the idea that entering the numbers was for the purpose of keeping the island hidden.

In relation to the Swan, I don't think entering the numbers caused it to move, but kept it electromagnetically charged, to keep it hidden. Remember the Philadelphia project? It was an old story (possibly true) about a ship that used electromagnets to charge around the ship, rendering it invisible to radar. The islands effect must have hidden the island completely.

Perhaps it's not the island itself that is moving, but the "window" to get to the island. That way it would be possible to get to the island by flying over Tunisia, for example (Nigerian drug plane). And the sun wouldn't change positions any more than usual.

That would also account for the difference in the FDW moving the island, and the standard "the island is always moving" explanation.

I like that idea better than the island physically being sliced off the ocean floor and moving somewhere else (where it would sink and cause a tremendous tidal wave). But Eloise did say that the island was moving, not windows in space-time.

What if the island floats on a set route, like a sailboat on tracks.. and when the donkeywheel was turned, and the island moves in time - the island teleports to the location where the island was localized at the time..

Think of the island as a car going from A through Z.. So when the island jumps in time after the wheel is pushed, the island jumps to stop C, and then to Y, and then to E and so on..

So.. my theory is that the island ALWAYS have moved as Ms Hawking implied, just not in time/space..

I think the Island has a propeller kind of motor deep under water and it can drive like a ship with that.

and for the timejumps I think it has a jumping-spring underneath it, so it can jump through time if it wants

I think the island has slipped off it's axis on the four-dimensional grid of space-time.

I'll make a two-dimensional analogy. Suppose you take a tablet of paper and you sign your name across the page in a straight line. If you do it right, your signature will be parallel to the edge of the page. Now suppose someone rotates the page slightly. If you were to sign your name the same way, it would now be at an angle. Your signature has now moved from one-dimensional space to two-dimensional space. (If we ignore the height of the letters.)

Regardless how many dimensions you are in, tilting the axis always adds at least one dimension to any attempt at movement.

Now, in four-dimensional space-time, we can only control our actions in three dimensions. We move through time at a fixed pace and we can operate in the remaining three dimensions. But, if someone tilts the axis, two things happen. First, our attempts to move in physical space have an effect on our place in time. And, second, the steady forward movement of time would necessarily change our position in the physical world.

That's why the island is always moving. It is out of alignment with the axes of the physical universe, and the effects of time going forward change its location on the planet.

That's also how I think the donkey wheel works. The axis of the island is controlled by the wheel. When it was stuck, things progressed as usual. When Ben unstuck it, the island shifted on it's space-time axis and started flashing and hopping around the space-time continuum.

If you guys want to see how the island moves in space-time, go check out a tesseract and see how a cube operates in four dimensions.