Now that the Losties are in Dharma-land, what if one of them (my bet is on crazy Daniel) tells a 12 year old version of Ben what is going to happen in the future.

I used to think Ben was a time travler, which is why is always had a plan for events that had not even happened yet. I never thought maybe other time travelers gave him the information.

Can you think of anything from past seasons that Sawyer, Miles, Daniel, Jin, Kate, Jack, Hugo might have told him in the 1970's that he uses in the 1990's??

Here is some that come to mind immediately
1) Remember then the 815 crashed, Ben starts barking out orders within about 2 seconds as if he had thought in through a thousand times.
2) When Alex dies, Ben says "That is not supposed to happen". Is that because one of our time travlers gives him bad information?
3) Miles asks Ben for 3.2 Million dollars. How did Ben get 3.2 million dollars? Because he knew something that was going to happen? Did he bet on the Red Sox? Stock Tip? Who would be elected President?
4) He knew that the Freighter people were there to kill him as soon as he sees Charlotte. How would he know that?
5) He knew that he could allow himself to be captured by the losties (when he pretended to be Henry Gale). He knew that they would not (in fact could not) kill him.
6) He knew Locke wouldn't die if he shot him.
7) Did he know that a spinal surgeon would crash on 815?
9) I think the Lists somehow fit in to this - who is important and who isn't
10) Heck, maybe Jack, Kate, or Hugo blabbed about how they got back to the island on Ajira 316

What else?? Is this possible??

That's what I'm thinking. They probably told him all sorts of things which helped him out in the future. You have a great theory, rogerworkman. :yes:

Yep, totally. Especially that #1. Ben comes out of his house and looks directly up into the sky exactly where the plane is breaking apart. He's been expecting it all day.

He's got all those big fat folders on everyone. I bet he's been collecting info on each of them for years, maybe even traveling off island occasionally to do some spying on them.

I posted this elsewhere earlier, but maybe the person Juliet looks like is Juliet herself. Maybe young Ben has a big crush on that hot blonde who works in the motor pool. ;)

I think they do tell him quite a bit of information..but is it BC they realize hes not a bad guy afterall ? or do they feel compelled to in order to complete the circle?

this theory completely confirms what I've been thinking for a while now.. these events just keep on happening because of TT... its like Faraday's analogy of the record..I think Locke has some knowledge as well he claims that the island speaks to him perhaps this is what it's telling him..

this theory completely confirms what I've been thinking for a while now.. these events just keep on happening because of TT... its like Faraday's analogy of the record..I think Locke has some knowledge as well he claims that the island speaks to him perhaps this is what it's telling him..

Interesting. Kind of like a Groundhog's Day? Bill Murray's character keeps looping, each time getting smarter; he cannot die, until he believes he is a "god"?

Like how Locke knows that it is about to rain?

I really like the theory about how Ben's list of people for Michael to bring to the Pala Ferry are the 815 survivors he met in the 70's, so he knows that they are supposed to survive. So that means he met them as a kid, knew that they would survive the crash in the future to go back in time and meet them as a kid. So maybe Ben brought them to the Hydra station to keep them safe (which, if its true, turns the whole scene around from 'Ben's an evil kidnapper, to 'wow, Ben was just trying to keep his old friends safe.') so they could flash back.
But, you ask, what about Jin? Well, I'm thinking that Jin disappears, for some reason, in the 70's before Ben has a chance to meet him. This would explain why he wasn't on the Hydra List and why it is such a big shock when Locke tells Ben that Jin is still alive.
Actually I'm starting to think of holes in this theory already, but maybe I'm on the right track:
Holes: - Ben let Hurley go, so he wasn't trying to protect him.
- What about Miles, Daniel, and Juliet - they aren't 815 survivors, but they are TTs who would need to be protected so they can flash back (although at the time of the list Juliet is safe at the Barracks and the freighter hasn't arrived yet)
- Young Ben is already on the Island in the late '70s, so he should have met Jin already / known he survived the freighter explosion in the future.
mmmmmm?
I really like Ben. I don't know if I think the character is "good" or not, but Michael Emerson is an amazing actor. I wouldn't be sad if, through TT, we are shown that most of the "evil" things Ben has done have actually been for the good of everyone. Ben's creepy feelings for Juiet, the Henry Gale mess, the kidnappings - we may soon see them all in a different light.

I was also thinking about Faraday's map that Cesar found in the Hydra office. I am guessing that Ben copied that as a kid and learned about time travel from Daniel in the 70's. As Sawyer said, Daniel's "brain is already fried" due to the shock of Charlotte's death. I suppose Faraday will say things to a very young Ben that he otherwise would not.

Now that the Losties are in Dharma-land, what if one of them (my bet is on crazy Daniel) tells a 12 year old version of Ben what is going to happen in the future.

I used to think Ben was a time travler, which is why is always had a plan for events that had not even happened yet. I never thought maybe other time travelers gave him the information.

Can you think of anything from past seasons that Sawyer, Miles, Daniel, Jin, Kate, Jack, Hugo might have told him in the 1970's that he uses in the 1990's??

Here is some that come to mind immediately
1) Remember then the 815 crashed, Ben starts barking out orders within about 2 seconds as if he had thought in through a thousand times.
2) When Alex dies, Ben says "That is not supposed to happen". Is that because one of our time travlers gives him bad information?
3) Miles asks Ben for 3.2 Million dollars. How did Ben get 3.2 million dollars? Because he knew something that was going to happen? Did he bet on the Red Sox? Stock Tip? Who would be elected President?
4) He knew that the Freighter people were there to kill him as soon as he sees Charlotte. How would he know that?
5) He knew that he could allow himself to be captured by the losties (when he pretended to be Henry Gale). He knew that they would not (in fact could not) kill him.
6) He knew Locke wouldn't die if he shot him.
7) Did he know that a spinal surgeon would crash on 815?
9) I think the Lists somehow fit in to this - who is important and who isn't
10) Heck, maybe Jack, Kate, or Hugo blabbed about how they got back to the island on Ajira 316

What else?? Is this possible??

Sure if you want to just make everything coincide, but....
1) Ben always acts decisively.
2) Family is supposed to be kept out of it in his game with Widmore, seems sort of a mafia or gentleman's type agreement.
3) You assume that Miles is asking for everything Ben has...maybe he is asking for an exact amount that he needs.
4) Michael feeds him the names of people on the boat.
5) He knew the losties were good character deep down, especially Jack and Locke.
6) I don't think he knew Locke would not die, but given that a guy who had his spine crushed from a fall could walk on the island is a pretty good indication he coudl survive a gun shot, especially if maybe Jacob told him.
7) no.
8) you listed no 8 =)
9) This is the only one that sounds remotely possible, that he remembers them from seeing them as a young version, not that they talked to him or anything. But we also know that Ben chose Kate because he needed to manipulate Jack. He chose Sawyer to manipulate Kate. He chose Hurley...because Hurley is Hurley -- plus they let him go remember.
10) yeah, they talk about a second plane crash and not a first one to a younger version of a person they do not like/trust. Why would he need Eloise hawking later int he future?
Sounds about the best place to sum this up.

Sure if you want to just make everything coincide, but....
1) Ben always acts decisively.
2) Family is supposed to be kept out of it in his game with Widmore, seems sort of a mafia or gentleman's type agreement.
3) You assume that Miles is asking for everything Ben has...maybe he is asking for an exact amount that he needs.
4) Michael feeds him the names of people on the boat.
5) He knew the losties were good character deep down, especially Jack and Locke.
6) I don't think he knew Locke would not die, but given that a guy who had his spine crushed from a fall could walk on the island is a pretty good indication he coudl survive a gun shot, especially if maybe Jacob told him.
7) no.
8) you listed no 8 =)
9) This is the only one that sounds remotely possible, that he remembers them from seeing them as a young version, not that they talked to him or anything. But we also know that Ben chose Kate because he needed to manipulate Jack. He chose Sawyer to manipulate Kate. He chose Hurley...because Hurley is Hurley -- plus they let him go remember.
10) yeah, they talk about a second plane crash and not a first one to a younger version of a person they do not like/trust. Why would he need Eloise hawking later int he future?
Sounds about the best place to sum this up.

1) Did you ever stop to ask yourself why he always acts decisively? As if he knows what is about to happen before it does?
2) So based on a "gentlemen's agreement" with Widmore he would tell Keamy to go ahead and kill his daughter? And then later be in shock that she actually died? Gentlemen's agreement? Really? Isn't it more likely that Ben believed that it was impossible for Alex to die? What would make him think that? After all, everything else that he was told happened exactly the way it was supposed to.
3) I don't even understand your point here. My point was "How did Ben get all that money?" I don't know how he got the money or why he needed it. I just thought if one of the losties happened to mention something from the future that Ben could capitalize on, (i.e. buy a certain stock or bet on a sporting event) something that was certain to happen...maybe you could make some money that way.
4) This point I didn't explain very well. I was trying to point out that Ben knew the bad intentions of the Freighter before he met any of the mercs, before the Freighter left dock for that matter. Let me try this point again. Why did Ben have Tom recruit Michael to be on the boat to begin with? How did Tom know that Michael couldn't die in NY? Maybe because Tom knew that Michael would die at a later date.
5) "Ben knew that the Losties were good character deep down"? That's your explanation? How would he know that? You think he would read files on Sayid, Sawyer, and Ana Lucia and assume that they are all nice people? Incapable of taking another persons life? Even though they all have before? Interesting.
6) This is my point exactly. What if Ben could not communicate at all with Jacob? What if everyone just thought he could because Ben seemed to know what was about to happen next? What if that information came from people who knew the future? That is why Ben was surprised that Locke could actually hear Jacob.
7) I am not sure about this either. It just seemed to me that Ben was not all that worried when Juliet told him he had a tumor on his spine. Ben couldn't plan for 815 to crash. That happened because of Desmond not pushing the button. But what if he already knew that Jack would arrive on 815? Ben didn't make 815 crash, he just knew it would.
9) I don't exactly know how the lists fit in yet.
10) You're right, this one is a stretch. But if you noticed, when they were talking to Eloise, Ben calmly waited in the church while Jack got all the details. Now that I think about it, that whole thing about "they all must go back". Maybe because the ones who go back do something important in the 1970's.

Clearly not a perfect theory. But I will bet dollars to donuts that young Ben learned some thing about future events from the Losties in Dharma-land. I don't know how. Maybe he secretly overhears a conversation that they have. The only question is how much information does he get.

I am fairly certain about the page from Daniel's Notebook. The one Cesar finds in the Hydra office. How else could that have gotten there? Daniel never went to the Hydra and he always keeps his notebook with him. I bet Ben copied that page from Daniel's notebook back in the 70's and learned about time travel at a very young age. Maybe without Daniel even knowing it.

I am fairly certain about the page from Daniel's Notebook. The one Cesar finds in the Hydra office. How else could that have gotten there? Daniel never went to the Hydra and he always keeps his notebook with him. I bet Ben copied that page from Daniel's notebook back in the 70's and learned about time travel at a very young age. Maybe without Daniel even knowing it.

We don't know that this is true at all. For all we know that could be Daniel's old office from his days in Dharma. I do think you are correct overall, though, and the Losties will influence Ben's formative years more than we think. I have a sneaking suspicion that our Losties will turn out to be a major reason as to why Ben is so twisted in the first place...

We don't know that this is true at all. For all we know that could be Daniel's old office from his days in Dharma. I do think you are correct overall, though, and the Losties will influence Ben's formative years more than we think. I have a sneaking suspicion that our Losties will turn out to be a major reason as to why Ben is so twisted in the first place...

Great point. It just seemed to me that Daniel is most likely to spend time with Mr. Candlewax discussing time-travel in the Orchid that he is training polar bears on the Hydra.

Excellent comment.

I'm a little shock that no one mentions anything about OLD Ben telling young Ben about everything.

I'm a little shock that no one mentions anything about OLD Ben telling young Ben about everything.

up to this point im unsure if Ben is also in 1977. If he is, hes a good candidate. If not, we have to look elsewhere.

2) When Alex dies, Ben says "That is not supposed to happen". Is that because one of our time travlers gives him bad information?

I wonder about that. Sawyer, Hurley and Miles all witnessed Alex' death. Seemingly they never warned young Ben about that.

Ben seemed so sure Alex wouldn't get hurt as if someone or something had specifically told him so. Which would be a cruel thing if they knew otherwise. Beats me, how talk about him having a daughter could have come up at all. Could Kate, with the intent to console a miserable and desparate teenager Ben, have mentioned that he has to carry on for the sake of his daughter. You know, if she or someone else told him who Alex was, they may inadvertedly be the cause of Alex' abduction. Kate never knew about Alex' death, didn't she?

I'm a little shock that no one mentions anything about OLD Ben telling young Ben about everything.

Great Comment. That would solve the problem of "Why on earth would the losties give little Ben any information on the future?" (My bet is that Ben overheard a conversation)

However, here are the potential problems with that theory.
A) How does old Ben get to 1970's now that the skipping has stopped?
B) The whole business of a person meeting themselves from a different time. Marvin Candlewax seemed to believe that caused big problems (at least for bunnies). We haven't seen an example of this yet. Locke saw the light from the hatch when they were skipping around and he seemed almost afraid of meeting himself.

There's a German term for this..i bet one of the more literate posters knows what it is. It's the word for the concept that a person cannot touch another time version of himself, (a doppelganger?) or the world will be destroyed.

We've seen the bunnies...and Locke asked Sawyer if he saw himself when he watched Kate and Claire give birth. So we know they can see each other.
This concept is touched on in the movie "The Prestige".

I agree that they did show us that Ben had copied Daniel's work, Danielle's maps, etc. and saved them all in his office. This idea that he finds Daniel's notebook and copies it is enough info for him to figure it all out from.

Go back to the very beginning when the message kept replaying...a lot were thinking that was telling us that the Losties had been acting out this reality many times...i hated that idea then, but it seems to be coming 'back around'.
But now it would appear that it's Benry who has lived this out many times before to get to his 'desired outcome'.

roger siad:
what if one of them (my bet is on crazy Daniel) tells a 12 year old version of Ben what is going to happen in the future.

One thing we've seen all along is that the Losties don't tell each other much of anything (at least that we see) they never compare notes, or nuttin'. ?

so i don't think they would say much to Benry other than some obtuse remark that he would be smart enough to 'get'...then he pieces the rest himself. And the notebook.

2) When Alex dies, Ben says "That is not supposed to happen". Is that because one of our time travlers gives him bad information?

I wonder about that. Sawyer, Hurley and Miles all witnessed Alex' death. Seemingly they never warned young Ben about that.

Ben seemed so sure Alex wouldn't get hurt as if someone or something had specifically told him so. Which would be a cruel thing if they knew otherwise. Beats me, how talk about him having a daughter could have come up at all. Could Kate, with the intent to console a miserable and desparate teenager Ben, have mentioned that he has to carry on for the sake of his daughter. You know, if she or someone else told him who Alex was, they may inadvertedly be the cause of Alex' abduction. Kate never knew about Alex' death, didn't she?
I bet you're right!!! Kate still feeling sadness/grief over having to give up Aaron may have told a young Ben that he will need to be strong or whatever because one day he will have Alex. I wonder if somehow Ben knowing the future has something to do with why he kidnaps Alex in the first place?

I remember reading an interview a while back where Darlton said Dan's journal will play a major role in the future.