Does anybody else think that Ben seemed to know about flight 316 (because of the runway) but wasn't expecting flight 815 to crash? His actions with the 815ers seem to be off the top of his head decisions. So, Desmond following Kelvin, pushing the button late and causing the plane to crash wasn't "supposed" to happen. I know there are a lot of open ends with this, but I can't shake the idea that Ben knew about 316 but not 815.

He has to know. He met them.

... I think. o.O

Now I'm not really sure. Because he seemed to know, but I'm not sure. I just remember the look in Ben's eyes when that plane split mid-air... so hopeful.

Ben already knew 815 would crash at some point, that's why as soon as he saw the plane he knew what to do.

I like the idea that 815 wasn't supposed to happen... but then 316 wouldn't happen without a whole different explanation. Perhaps Ben didn't really believe in the Island until 815 and thus he was inspired to build a runway for 316.

I like that scenario better than the idea that Ben just let 815 crash because that's what always happened... but maybe he knew that it crashed and that there was no way to change it.

But I think Ben has figured out how to change the past or present or future or whatever and that's why we're really never sure of what he's doing.

Just because he knows these people from the 70's doesn't mean he knows how they will arrive. He could be waiting for them to show up, just not sure how.

Unless they say to kid Ben that they crashed on the island from a plane then he will have no idea. Unless they somehow reveal themselves to him then I dont see why he would suspect them coming, but he would recognize them after finally seeing them all these years later looking the same.

interesting idea, but...a runway would be of no use to an airplane that split in the air, thus ben's action plan for 815 differed from the one for 316

It's hard to say exactly what details Ben knew. Did someone sit down with little Ben and give the entire story? How much information had Richard accumulated through the years? Certainly they knew some stuff, but I don't know if they had the full account. My guess is that Ben knew that 815 was coming, and he knew somewhat who would be on board.

The first scene of season 3 was one of my favorite on the show, what a jaw dropping ahh moment when the Others watch the plane breakup. But rewatching it now, it comes off completely different (but maybe even more cool). Ben seems to have been waiting for the plane. Maybe he didn't know when or where it would crash, but he was ready.
Here's how the scene would have gone in real life:
Ben: ...get to that fuselage as fast as possible, there may actually be survivors.
Ethan: What? Are you s*#tting me? Did you see what I just saw. That plan disinigrated in mid air.
Ben: Act like you're a survivor. I want lists in three days.
Ethan: Lists? Survivors, what in the hell are you talking about? Sure, I'll take a hike over there and check it out. Might be cool. Plane crash and everything. Maybe a couple of dead bodies. Don't think I'll be making any lists though.
Goodwin: Yeah Ben, I mean, I don't even think that the pieces of the plane are on the island. It was pretty hight up there. Our Island is kind of small. Probably out in the ocean somewhere. No worries (looks at Juliet and smiles).
Ben: GET OUT THERE AND LOOK AFTER THOSE 48 PEOPLE! I mean just check it out for me.
Ethan and Goodwin: Alright, alright. What a d!ck.
IMHO.

I like the idea that 815 wasn't supposed to happen... .

Wasn't there a problem on 815 and the pilots were trying to turn back?
If so, I'd like to think chance made it crash, not destiny.

The first scene of season 3 was one of my favorite on the show, what a jaw dropping ahh moment when the Others watch the plane breakup. But rewatching it now, it comes off completely different (but maybe even more cool). Ben seems to have been waiting for the plane. Maybe he didn't know when or where it would crash, but he was ready.
Here's how the scene would have gone in real life:
Ben: ...get to that fuselage as fast as possible, there may actually be survivors.
Ethan: What? Are you s*#tting me? Did you see what I just saw. That plan disinigrated in mid air.
Ben: Act like you're a survivor. I want lists in three days.
Ethan: Lists? Survivors, what in the hell are you talking about? Sure, I'll take a hike over there and check it out. Might be cool. Plane crash and everything. Maybe a couple of dead bodies. Don't think I'll be making any lists though.
Goodwin: Yeah Ben, I mean, I don't even think that the pieces of the plane are on the island. It was pretty hight up there. Our Island is kind of small. Probably out in the ocean somewhere. No worries (looks at Juliet and smiles).
Ben: GET OUT THERE AND LOOK AFTER THOSE 48 PEOPLE! I mean just check it out for me.
Ethan and Goodwin: Alright, alright. What a d!ck.
IMHO.
:D lol

Yeah, it does make one wonder just what it is that Ben has to get such unquestioning responses from his people.

My bet is that Ben knew about both planes but in his usual self-preservatory way could have had the runway contstructed because he knew he'd be on a flight that would end up crash landing on the island at some point (flight 316, which handily had a pilot who had previous experience of making a 'difficult' landing on the island too!). I suppose also some of this depends on Ben (from 1977 onwards) finding out the truth about the likes of Sawyer & his fellow 815 survivors, so he'd have an idea that at some point an airplane would break up & crash on the island & that some of the passengers etc would survive- plus in Ben's view he's not on that flight so why bother about making their landing any easier? He also didn't seem to give a damn about the other passengers on flight 316 either- maybe he had an idea that wherever he went to when they hit problems, flashed then crash-landed (I'm guessing the toilet) was potentially the safest place onboard for him, both in terms of physical wellbeing & not time-jumping?

Like what someone else noted. What's the point in making a runway for a plane that's going to crash over the island?

I thought Ben was surprised by 815 because he didnt know Desmond wasnt going to push the button in time, causing the plane to crash into the island.
Also, he must have known he was returning in a plane someday, thats why the runway was built. He could have taken any flight that Ms Hawking showed him to get back in an "event window", not neccessarily 316.

Ben must have known about both crashes and was fully prepared for flight 815 to crash he obviously just hadnt told the others. However i think he did tell them about 316 as a way to get them to build the runway and to proove that he is 'special' as he can predict the future.

I also believe that Ben knew about both crashes. But that would require that either Frank or Sun makes it back to the 70's...right? Who else would know about the need for a runway??? Didn't Christian give a hint as to them traveling to the 70's.

Also, don't forget that Ben prepared fake costumes/beards and a fake village to deceive the Losties. That must have been done before the 815 crash...right?

Also, I seem to remember Ben being remarkably calm for someone who just found out that he had a tumor on his spine. He would have to know 2 things to be that calm....1) a spinal surgeon will drop out of the sky in time to heal me...2) he won't kill me during the operation.

I also believe that Ben knew about both crashes. But that would require that either Frank or Sun makes it back to the 70's...right? Who else would know about the need for a runway??? Didn't Christian give a hint as to them traveling to the 70's.



Thats what I was thinking but they explained the situation a little in the podcast.


They said Jacob told them to build the runway

I think Ben knew about both crashes, especially since we now know that he's interacted with at least one of the 815ers back in his childhood.

If they're in the past...they were ALWAYS in the past. It's the only way to make the time travel idea work, paradox-free, without resorting to alternate timelines. So, even in what we view as the "original" timeline, Ben still has the memory of Sayid being in the jail cell, and whatever else ends up happening, and it stands to reason that Ben could've found out about the flight(s) from any of the losties he runs into back in the 70's.

of course he knew. I think he was expecting them to have flashed out of the plane during Flight 815 crash. He might have not known, as a boy, that these people came from Ajira 316, he just knew that they were from the future and that they have crashed on a plane....

When he ordered them to get the list of the passengers names, I think he was trying to find out if there were any people missing from the manifest, meaning that they had flashed to the past already...

I think we're going to find out that a lot of what Ben knows was told to him by Jacob. First of all, none of the 316 people that flashed to the past knows what happened to 316. We also know that Christian "speaks for Jacob" and has been in different time periods. Here's my theory:

Ben didn't know about Jacob until late in the '70's early '80's. When he finds out about his immense power, he banishes Widmore (who speaks with Jacob). He then becomes leader of The Other's and begins learning from Jacob what will happen in the future (316 runway, 815 crashing, etc.) He uses this information for whatever reason, we don't know yet, and keeps Jacob trapped behind the circle of ash. I'm not sure if Ben knows that Jacob can reanimate dead bodies, because he hasn't seen Locke or Christian yet and Jacob is using them to thwart Ben, and possibly Widmore. All of these people's motivations (Jacob, Widmore, Ben) are unknown, so I can't clarify further.

I'm sure there are many holes in this theory, but I'm quite proud of myself for putting a coherent paragraph together when it comes to time discussions on this show. I am, however, a big fan of constructive criticism so please help me out!

I think he was expecting 815, he just wasn't expecting it to crash. The reason he sent Ethan & Goodwin to make lists, was to see who survived.

It seems that everything connected to Desmond is unexpected. Ben never knew about him being in the Swan. By the time he discovered the Swan, our people had moved in and Des was gone.

Des was not supposed to miss pushing the button and cause the crash. It was either supposed to land, or fly over like 314, and the Losties flash to the island.

Des was not supposed to prevent Charlies death. Because of this, the O6 left and had to be brought back.

I suspect that when he returns, his uniqueness outside of the normal rules of time travel will cause another major problem.

I love Desmond, but he has been a real wrench in the cogwheel of destiny on this island.

I think we're going to find out that a lot of what Ben knows was told to him by Jacob. First of all, none of the 316 people that flashed to the past knows what happened to 316. We also know that Christian "speaks for Jacob" and has been in different time periods. Here's my theory:

Ben didn't know about Jacob until late in the '70's early '80's. When he finds out about his immense power, he banishes Widmore (who speaks with Jacob). He then becomes leader of The Other's and begins learning from Jacob what will happen in the future (316 runway, 815 crashing, etc.) He uses this information for whatever reason, we don't know yet, and keeps Jacob trapped behind the circle of ash. I'm not sure if Ben knows that Jacob can reanimate dead bodies, because he hasn't seen Locke or Christian yet and Jacob is using them to thwart Ben, and possibly Widmore. All of these people's motivations (Jacob, Widmore, Ben) are unknown, so I can't clarify further.

I'm sure there are many holes in this theory, but I'm quite proud of myself for putting a coherent paragraph together when it comes to time discussions on this show. I am, however, a big fan of constructive criticism so please help me out!


What if Ben got rid of Widmore because he was talking to Jacob and following his instructions. Ben knowing what was going to happen in the future didn't like the direction Jacob via Widmore was taking them, so he gets rid of Widmore and traps Jacob (who asked John to help him). Then Ben pretends that he is passing on Jacob's instructions when he is really using his pre-knowlege of events to achieve his own goals. Maybe Ben can't actually even talk to Jacob, which is why he was so threatened when John could? Jacob has just been a convenient way to predict the future without raising suspicion, and also a way to get the others to do his bidding without question. I guess one problem with this is that Richard is aware of the time travel.

What if Ben got rid of Widmore because he was talking to Jacob and following his instructions. Ben knowing what was going to happen in the future didn't like the direction Jacob via Widmore was taking them, so he gets rid of Widmore and traps Jacob (who asked John to help him). Then Ben pretends that he is passing on Jacob's instructions when he is really using his pre-knowlege of events to achieve his own goals. Maybe Ben can't actually even talk to Jacob, which is why he was so threatened when John could? Jacob has just been a convenient way to predict the future without raising suspicion, and also a way to get the others to do his bidding without question. I guess one problem with this is that Richard is aware of the time travel.

I like the fact he got rid of Widmore because of Jacob. I just can't imagine Ben getting ALL of his information from the Losties in the '70's. Partially because that would be lame, and partially because the Losties, upon finding out who he is, probably wouldn't do that.

I wonder how far into the future Ben knows whats going to happen? I mean, does he know much further past the time period he's in now (2007)? During his time off the island he didn't seem like he was aware of what was going on. Ben had to speak with Jacob to know that there was a runway needed because the people who flashed to Dharma have no idea what happened to 316. The only reason I think he knew about 815 was due to the fact that the Losties will tell him, but they'll also tell him that it will crash, something that he can't change. Plus, the reveal that Kate and Sawyer were building the runway was after 815 crashed. If the runway wasn't there before the crash, and we can assume such because our Losties were working on it, then it was never there. Judging from what we have been told about time.

Man am I good at rambling.

I still think that there is a reason for Ben to be very interested in putting the oceanic 6 back on the island. He knew that they would time travel Now why would he want them back in the past? Does he really care about the rest of the world's fate if they didn't come back? He didn't even care about the rest of the passengers on the Ajira 316!!! So I am sure he has a very selfish reason for him to want them in the past during Dharma times. That's why I think that, somehow, the losties are the ones who are gonna put Ben in the powerful position he has always been...