Did Ellie or was Ellie always a Seer of some kind? The conversation Richard had didnt suggest to me she was a leader, more someone they seek guidance from first.

For example:

Other: "Shouldnt do this without asking Ellie. If Charles finds out..."
Richard: "Let him find out...I dont answer to either of them."

I think this means they ask Ellie for some kind of guidance maybe and Charles as the one who approves it. I wonder because the scene where Desmond goes to the jewellery store could tell us she knows or sees the future. She didnt TT consciously or physically she just always knew and as such corrected Desmond when he tried to take the ring.

It might explain why weve seen her most often in Desmonds past. The photo on the monks desk, maybe she knows Desmond can be a wild card to what she sees and so has been a careful and close participant in his life.

I know it doesnt fit with her being completely unaware when she met them in the 50s but maybe something happened to her...like what happened to Desmond.

Three leaders, whoo baby, whoo! Them Others is bad man!

Perhaps Widmore is the leader, new recruits and such goe through Ellie, and Richard handles the religious and political aspects such as talking to Dharma.

I like the idea of elle being some kind of future seeing person like des was but that conversation could just mean charles was busy and left ellie in charge. Future ellie could just be using conscious TT as well

Well, she's off the island now, which, as we've seen, is not to be taken lightly.

She seemed to be able to tell the future when she met Desmond, but the Losties are still in 1977 so we probably haven't seen her entire story played out yet.

Meaning; if she talks to one of the Losties about a guy named Desmond Hume pushing a button in The Swan hatch for 3 years, bingo, she has most of the information she needs to pull her con on Desmond.

Her knowing about the guy in the red shoes is still a pothole, but if they can fake a plane crash in the ocean, faking a construction accident involving a guy with red shoes should be a piece of cake, so it can be explained.

Can we conclude that Widmore and Ellie were "resurrected" in the temple?

Can we conclude that Widmore and Ellie were "resurrected" in the temple?


I dont think so, all I think we can conclude is that Widmore and Ellie are in leadership positions and that Richard is his own boss.

Other: "Shouldnt do this without asking Ellie. If Charles finds out..."
Richard: "Let him find out...I dont answer to either of them."

Who does he answer to? Jacob?

Who does he answer to? Jacob?

Thats a good question. We would assume Jacob since we dont really have anyone else to think of. But I would think if their is an answer to that question it lies within that temple.

I dont think so, all I think we can conclude is that Widmore and Ellie are in leadership positions and that Richard is his own boss.

Right, it would appear that in 1954 Widmore and Ellie were "normal" army personnel. We also know that now they are not so "normal" (Widmore cannot be killed, Ellie seems to know the future)

So, what changed them? Could it be the Temple?

Right, but we know that in 1954 Widmore and Ellie were "normal". We also know that now they are not so "normal" (Widmore cannot be killed, Ellie seems to know the future)

So, what changed them?

Yes, I like the idea of something happened. Charles was forceful, arrogant in the Jughead epi, Ellie seemed cautious but nowhere near calm and collected as she seems in the future.
Maybe they became an item, do we know who Pennys mother is? Maybe that is why theres a picture of Eloise with the monk it wasnt because of Desmond it was Eliie keeping an eye on her daughter, oo i think i wet myself. This needs more thought.

Yes, I like the idea of something happened. Charles was forceful, arrogant in the Jughead epi, Ellie seemed cautious but nowhere near calm and collected as she seems in the future.
Maybe they became an item, do we know who Pennys mother is? Maybe that is why theres a picture of Eloise with the monk it wasnt because of Desmond it was Eliie keeping an eye on her daughter, oo i think i wet myself. This needs more thought.

Theres a lot of discussion about ellie and charles. I personally think theyre siblings rather than intimate. She certainly gained knowledge at some point, maybe the incident...Desmond could specifically see Charlies future but what if Ellie is somehow involved in the incident and develops a similar condition, it could explain a few things.

I was thinking is that what made them "special" is the same thing that is about to make Ben "special", namely being healed/resurrected in the Temple

I really got the feeling that Ellie was the Other's sheriff in the past, like Isabel was in the current time. It fits with her attitude and behavior in 1954, and with the line about asking Ellie before taking Ben to the temple.

Keep in mind that when Des went to the past, it was the past. Those things had already happened before in 1996. Including the man in the red shoes getting flattened. Desmond was reliving this event. The events that took place after it, up until 2004, were all part of the past. So Eloise wasn't seeing the future, she was there reliving this past event with Desmond, trying to keep him on the right course.

We don't know anything yet about these course correctors, what skills they possess, and how they came to be in these positions. I imagine somehow, current Eloise was able to project herself back consciously to 96 with Desmond, to keep him on track.

In their conversation, she told him he had to enter the numbers for 3 years and turn the key..... So maybe she was expecting his return once the key was turned, and made it a point to be there, consciously, like Des did in "The Constant". It was 2004 Eloise's mind in 1996 Eloise's body.

I think Desmond has to be watched more closely. Being the wildcard means he has free will. The rest of the group who has traveled back in time will fall right into place on their fated course, and do whatever they did before. They can't change things, but Desmond can. He needs guidance.

I really think Ellie(Eloise H) and Charles are siblings....they argued like sibs when we saw them in 1954 and it seems like they have equal "power" among the Others.

I also think they both somehow were "transformed" into Others via Smokey and/or whatever happens down in the Temple.

But Eloise does seem more "mystical" for lack of a better word....maybe "special". It's more than just extremely intelligent like Daniel, there's an added quality to her.

I like the idea that whatever happens in the Temple is why Charles and Ben can not kill each other..it could be a mystical/supernatural phenomena or just part of a pact that one makes when deemed "special" by Smokey or the Island.

As far as who Richard "answers to" .... I don't think it's Jacob for some reason I just don't see Jacob being "an underground God" or supreme being.
I think Richard though does answer to whatever/whoever is in the Temple.

I really got the feeling that Ellie was the Other's sheriff in the past, like Isabel was in the current time. It fits with her attitude and behavior in 1954, and with the line about asking Ellie before taking Ben to the temple.

It was 2004 Eloise's mind in 1996 Eloise's body.

I think Desmond has to be watched more closely. Being the wildcard means he has free will. The rest of the group who has traveled back in time will fall right into place on their fated course, and do whatever they did before. They can't change things, but Desmond can. He needs guidance.

I like the sheriff idea!

I think if Ellie did CTT from somewhere... it's further out than 2004.... 2010?

Desmond is not a wild card, nor can he change anything as has been shown. When he "postponed Charlie's death," he wasn't seeing flashes of the future, but flashes of the past in various iterations of memory... like a "telephone" tale which changes as it is passed along...

I like the sheriff idea!

I think if Ellie did CTT from somewhere... it's further out than 2004.... 2010?

Desmond is not a wild card, nor can he change anything as has been shown. When he "postponed Charlie's death," he wasn't seeing flashes of the future, but flashes of the past in various iterations of memory... like a "telephone" tale which changes as it is passed along...

Thats what bothers me with Eloise though. Lets say she CTT from 2010 as an example, and Desmond is a wildcard...their is no way with how time is described in the show for Eloise to go back and correct him because everything would have changed. She would have to be a wildcard too, where she would have knowledge of the events that should have occured for her to ensure they stayed that way.

See Daniel creates a new memory for Desmond, that memory stretches across spacetime and reaches Desmond. Desmond initially went to the island presumably of his own actions, but later we see him blame Eloise for making him give back the ring. There is something here.

Im simply saying she didnt travel in time at all but either had knowledge of what Desmond was supposed to do or had always manipulated him which would be a massive headache to understand. The whole CTT thing could be something that severely put holes in the linear WHH idea.

Thats what bothers me with Eloise though. Lets say she CTT from 2010 as an example, and Desmond is a wildcard...their is no way with how time is described in the show for Eloise to go back and correct him because everything would have changed. She would have to be a wildcard too, where she would have knowledge of the events that should have occured for her to ensure they stayed that way.

See Daniel creates a new memory for Desmond, that memory stretches across spacetime and reaches Desmond. Desmond initially went to the island presumably of his own actions, but later we see him blame Eloise for making him give back the ring. There is something here.

Im simply saying she didnt travel in time at all but either had knowledge of what Desmond was supposed to do or had always manipulated him which would be a massive headache to understand. The whole CTT thing could be something that severely put holes in the linear WHH idea.

I don't get what you're saying. If she went back in time to when she originally met him in the ring shop, she would have a memory of it because she was there the previous time. She is not trying to change anything. She is making sure he does the same thing again. She wouldn't have to do this with anyone else...only Des because he has free will.

And he DID leave her shop with the ring.

After she tells him all about course correction, he says,

DESMOND: I'm going to meet Penny in an hour. I've got the ring; she'll say yes; I can choose whatever I want.
MS. HAWKING: You may not like your path, Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing that you will ever do.
DESMOND: How much for the ring?
[Ms. Hawking looks disappointed and walks away.]

Then, after he meets Penny and they have their picture taken, he says,

DESMOND: How can I? I - I can't look after you. I haven't got a job. I don't have any -- I can't even afford 5 quid for a bloody photograph. You deserve someone better.
I'm sorry, Pen, but this -- we're not supposed to be together.
[Penelope walks away. Desmond throws the ring into the river.]


Hawking must have been pretty convincing. Plus, Des realized he wasn't good enough for Penny. But he had the ring, then threw it away of his own free will. He made that choice.

Hawking hasn't had to always manipulate him... just that one time. He went to the island once. Later, he turned the key and was thrust into the past. That's the only time she needed to step in, when he was reliving his past experiences. He has the ability to change things, and he almost did.
When the left-behinders went back to the past, no one had to watch over them. They can't change the past, they can only follow the fated path that was already created.

Furthermore, he changed fate by preventing Charlies death. If Charlie had been allowed to die when he was supposed to, the O6 would never have left the island and have to be brought back.




Desmond is not a wild card, nor can he change anything as has been shown. When he "postponed Charlie's death," he wasn't seeing flashes of the future, but flashes of the past in various iterations of memory... like a "telephone" tale which changes as it is passed along...
I'm not sure where the term "wildcard" originated, (probably here) but Daniel said:

"Desmond... the rules... the rules don't apply to you. You're special. You're uniquely and miraculously special."

This implies that his past can be altered, something which cannot happen to anyone else.

The reason why Desmond's flashes of Claire & Aaron boarding a helicopter changed, is because each time he postponed Charlie's death, he was altering the course of destiny a little. If Charlie hadn't unblocked communication, they wouldn't have split up, with half going to the tower and half going to Othersville, and a random group leaving the island. The helicopter might have come on its own and taken Claire and Aaron (and Sun) like was supposed to happen. They weren't supposed to be there for this.

I'm not sure where the term "wildcard" originated, (probably here) but Daniel said:

It came from Damon:

Earlier episodes with Desmond (Henry Ian Cusick) laid out a Lost rule: You can't change your Destiny. Desmond's mental ability to move through time and space makes him a "wild card"," executive producer Damon Lindelof says.

Jan.16, 2009 USA Today article.

I don't get what you're saying. If she went back in time to when she originally met him in the ring shop, she would have a memory of it because she was there the previous time. She is not trying to change anything. She is making sure he does the same thing again. She wouldn't have to do this with anyone else...only Des because he has free will.

And he DID leave her shop with the ring.

After she tells him all about course correction, he says,

DESMOND: I'm going to meet Penny in an hour. I've got the ring; she'll say yes; I can choose whatever I want.
MS. HAWKING: You may not like your path, Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing that you will ever do.
DESMOND: How much for the ring?
[Ms. Hawking looks disappointed and walks away.]

Then, after he meets Penny and they have their picture taken, he says,

DESMOND: How can I? I - I can't look after you. I haven't got a job. I don't have any -- I can't even afford 5 quid for a bloody photograph. You deserve someone better.
I'm sorry, Pen, but this -- we're not supposed to be together.
[Penelope walks away. Desmond throws the ring into the river.]

I'm not sure where the term "wildcard" originated, (probably here) but Daniel said:


Ahh TY. I often forget details when thinking randomly about previous episodes. You are correct he does take the ring and more importantly gets the photo taken. But what I am trying to establish is a connection between Ellie being somewhat important in this episode and what we know of her so far. I understand we know CTT'ing even physical TT'ing is possible but what if she does neither of these and is in fact able to see the future much like Desmond did with Charlie only on a much larger scale. She may just be using CTT or normal TT methods but i propose an idea she could also see flashes like Des did.

It came from Damon:

Jan.16, 2009 USA Today article.

Yes and also in S3E8 Desmonds physicist friend is having a discussion with a student...from the transcript:

DONOVAN: Your thesis is a bit neat. The wild card part which is unpredictability -- run the same test 10 times -- you'll get 10 different outcomes. It's what makes life so wonderfully chaotic.

DESMOND: [entering] Donovan!
DONOVAN: Case in point, who could have known that a drenched Scotsman would appear in this rotunda?