Back in Season 3 Sawyer shot Tom (Mr. Friendly), in cold blood, without mercy, for taking the Kid (Walt) off the boat.

Even earlier in Season 3 Tom has a conversation with Jack:

TOM: What kind of people do you think we are, Jack?

JACK: Oh, I don't know, Tom -- the kind of people that would take a pregnant woman -- that would hang Charlie from a tree -- would grab our people out of the jungle -- would kidnap children. That's the kind of people I think you are.

TOM [tapping the glass]: You see this glass house you're living in, Jack? How about I get you some stones?

Now Sawyer himself is a kidnapper. He's taken Ben from his home and his family and given him over to a future of who knows what.

I wonder what old Tom would be saying about that if he could still speak.

Back in Season 3 Sawyer shot Tom (Mr. Friendly), in cold blood, without mercy, for taking the Kid (Walt) off the boat. Now Sawyer himself is a kidnapper. He's taken Ben from his home and his family and given him over to a future of who knows what.
I wonder what old Tom would be saying about that if he could still speak.

Considering that Ben was facing certain death, with no other options, Sawyer handed him over to the Others as a last resort--the ultimate motivation was to save Ben's life, to help him.

Tom took a kid away from his father so that his people could experiment on him.

Seems pretty different to me.

Ummm....Sawyer was trying to as he said ,"save a kid's life" even though he knows what Ben does to all of them when he grows up...also knowing it could risk his new life as "LaFleur" that he obviously enjoys very much.
That is very different from the Others taking Walt to experiment on him, and then use him to get his father to do whatever it takes to get Ben back. Also, we saw the Others kidnap Claire and at least act as though they were going to take him from her. Not to mention,they kidnap baby Alex from Danielle.

I didn't look at it as kidnapping, far from it. Sawyer has every intention of returning Ben when he is "healed." I saw it actually as a pretty noble gesture. He knew everything that Ben would become and still tried to save his life.

, Plus, isn't that where Ben really wants to be, anyway?

I think most courts might still rule it as a kidnapping... I'm pretty sure if I walked off with a minor and no consent from a parent or guardian I would still be prosecuted... despite any intention of returning him or her safely. But legally I think Kate would take most of the legal stuff as she actually did it... Juliet and Sawyer would only be accused of aiding it... or committing conspiracy to kidnap... not really knowing the law, I can't say. If you wanna vote for Sawyer having done a good deed, I couldn't really argue that as it's a moral issue and everyone has differen't morals.

But it is a parralell to what the others do. They seem to choose to do whatever they need to to get the desired results. That's what Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet were all doing in this episode. But again, I think it's a nice parallel and helps us learn about some of our characters as they are now.

If we are going to bring courts into this, wouldn't Jack as a surgeon be up on charges for not attempting to help in the first place?

Dharma may suspect Kate, Juliet and Sawyer of abducting Ben after this point.

I don't know that I would say it's kidnapping but you do have a point who were Kate and Sawyer to have made that decision for Ben when he has a father to make it for him? whatever one may think of Roger he still did have parental authority. could they not have waited or somehow contacted him? and, more to the point, why send the only parent off on an errand to get medical supplies when his son is in dire circumstances and life or death decisions may need to be made? no one else could have been sent to the medical station?

Think Roger's gonna be happy when he gets back given the feelings he has expressed about the Others?

I don't know that I would say it's kidnapping but you do have a point who were Kate and Sawyer to have made that decision for Ben when he has a father to make it for him? whatever one may think of Roger he still did have parental authority. could they not have waited or somehow contacted him? and, more to the point, why send the only parent off on an errand to get medical supplies when his son is in dire circumstances and life or death decisions may need to be made? no one else could have been sent to the medical station?

Think Roger's gonna be happy when he gets back given the feelings he has expressed about the Others?

If Juliet and Sawyer had told Roger/Horace that the Hostiles could save Ben, they would either think they were out of their minds or suspect them of being spies. Which is ultimately what is going to happen anyway.

I don't know that I would say it's kidnapping but you do have a point who were Kate and Sawyer to have made that decision for Ben when he has a father to make it for him? whatever one may think of Roger he still did have parental authority. could they not have waited or somehow contacted him? and, more to the point, why send the only parent off on an errand to get medical supplies when his son is in dire circumstances and life or death decisions may need to be made? no one else could have been sent to the medical station?

Think Roger's gonna be happy when he gets back given the feelings he has expressed about the Others?


Two reasons I can think of to send him on an errand;

1 I imagine having one or both parents hanging over your shoulder while your doing your best to save their kid can be a little distracting for the doctor

2 Simply to make Roger feel useful, feel like he's doing something to actually help his kid rather than sitting around waiting. Wouldn't you rather feel useful if your kid was dying, rather than waiting. I know I would...even if we (the audience) know it is a useless errand, Roger didn't know that.

I think most courts might still rule it as a kidnapping... I'm pretty sure if I walked off with a minor and no consent from a parent or guardian I would still be prosecuted... despite any intention of returning him or her safely.

But... if you were a doctor (Juliet) and had the parent's consent to treat the child (which we can assume she did, since Roger was aware he was being treated and wasn't trying to stop her) and you determined the treatment involved transfer to some other "medical facility," that's not really kidnapping. And the "ambulance driver" (Kate) or "assistant" (Sawyer) wouldn't be guilty of kidnapping either. She had Roger's consent to do what she needed to do to save Ben. He never refused any of her treatment, and she, as the doctor, felt what Ben needed was to go to the Others for further treatment.
100%
[...] who were Kate and Sawyer to have made that decision for Ben when he has a father to make it for him?

Actually, Juliet suggested the course of action, and she's the doctor. What does Roger know about treating gunshot wounds. I admire Juliet for knowing her limitations as a doctor, unlike Jack, who thinks he can save people by transfusing his own blood into them and then chopping off their leg...

Considering that Ben was facing certain death, with no other options, Sawyer handed him over to the Others as a last resort--the ultimate motivation was to save Ben's life, to help him.

Tom took a kid away from his father so that his people could experiment on him.

Seems pretty different to me.

According to Karl, the Others have a similar reason for taking children without the parents' permission.

Ummm....Sawyer was trying to as he said ,"save a kid's life" even though he knows what Ben does to all of them when he grows up...also knowing it could risk his new life as "LaFleur" that he obviously enjoys very much.
That is very different from the Others taking Walt to experiment on him, and then use him to get his father to do whatever it takes to get Ben back. Also, we saw the Others kidnap Claire and at least act as though they were going to take him from her. Not to mention,they kidnap baby Alex from Danielle.

Here is the transcript of a conversation between Kate, Sawyer and Karl:

KATE: Work on what?

KARL: Projects.

SAWYER: Well, sure, like the steal-the-kid-off-the-raft project. That was a humdinger.

KATE: So, you don't actually live on that island?

KARL: Nope.

KATE: Do you live here on this island?

KARL: Yes, ma'am.

KATE: And what did you do with the people that you took - the kids?

KARL: We give them a better life.

KATE: Better than what?

KARL: Better than yours.


They come for the children, don't ask for permission and don't tell you what they are really going to do. They take them who knows where to do who knows what. The parallels are so great, the irony so tremendous, it has to have been intentional on the part of the writers. It is almost as if Ben decided he would treat all the children as he was treated or perhaps like with the O5's trip back to the island, for some unknown reason he has to duplicate whatever happened in the past.



I think most courts might still rule it as a kidnapping... I'm pretty sure if I walked off with a minor and no consent from a parent or guardian I would still be prosecuted... despite any intention of returning him or her safely. But legally I think Kate would take most of the legal stuff as she actually did it... Juliet and Sawyer would only be accused of aiding it... or committing conspiracy to kidnap... not really knowing the law, I can't say. If you wanna vote for Sawyer having done a good deed, I couldn't really argue that as it's a moral issue and everyone has differen't morals.

But it is a parralell to what the others do. They seem to choose to do whatever they need to to get the desired results. That's what Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet were all doing in this episode. But again, I think it's a nice parallel and helps us learn about some of our characters as they are now.

I agree Kate is the one who actually physically removed him from the infirmary, but Sawyer was the only one to kill someone in cold blood and use removing a child as the reason for the death. I found it very ironic that he is now doing the same thing with good intentions or not.


I don't know that I would say it's kidnapping but you do have a point who were Kate and Sawyer to have made that decision for Ben when he has a father to make it for him? whatever one may think of Roger he still did have parental authority. could they not have waited or somehow contacted him? and, more to the point, why send the only parent off on an errand to get medical supplies when his son is in dire circumstances and life or death decisions may need to be made? no one else could have been sent to the medical station?

Think Roger's gonna be happy when he gets back given the feelings he has expressed about the Others?

This is the thing that really got me going. What if, even if trying to save my son's life, people came and took him away? They took him to some quack witch doctor they did not even know, they just heard about him. They had no idea even what the treatment would be. The quack didn't explain it to them, he just told them that my son would not be the same, he would be changed forever and they just left him there. No chance for me to give my opinion, no opportunity for me to say no. Even if it saves his life, I believe there is a fate worse than death and sometimes dead is better. Whether that is the case here or not, we don't know yet. But as his parent, I would be very upset if other people made that decision for me.

Even as bad a father as Roger Linus seemed to be, he deserved the opportunity to make that decision for his son.