My my...How one's stubborness or stupidity can have devastating effects.

Jack had the fate of Ben Linus not once, but twice and screwed up both times. In 2004, Jack had the perfect opportunity to kill Ben, with Juliet asking and willing to help, but he didn't... Even Richard Alpert was doubting Ben's capabilities as a leader. Instead, Jack saves him. We all know what that did for the people on the Kahana, some of the 06 and for John Locke. All this because Ben is an Other with a hidden agenda.

Why is Ben an Other?

Because Jack had the chance to save him without the help of the Others, but he didn't...thus taking away the chance for Ben to grow up "normal" and most likely giving the Losties a totally different future.

How is he going to redeem himself after that? I hope the Others ask Christian Shephard for a sacrifice...

Eric

I have come to the conclusion that a major theme this season has to do with the balance between free will and destiny. The question is can he really decide to kill Ben? As we've seen in the past the "Island" has prevented people from dying when it's "not finished with them". I think Jack was right that Ben was going to survive no matter what he did. Ben was going to be saved by the others because that was what happened and nobody could change that. So in theory Jack couldn't make any decision other than what he did. As I've argued in other threads, when they are in the past the fact that they can't alter the future means the sense that they have free will to affect events is an illusion.

and most likely giving the Losties a totally different future
By the show's stated rules on time travel, that is simply not possible. Ben would have always been as he was. There is no changing the future regardless how Jack acted.
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So in theory Jack couldn't make any decision other than what he did.
That is either not correct, or I'm getting hung up on semantics.

For the person making the decision, in that moment, it is no different than if there was no time travel involved. They are free to decide whatever they want, it will just turn out to be what had always happened. Doesn't necessarily trap them or remove free will, really. It's just a matter of perspective in time.


For instance, take two coins and place them in front of you. Now give yourself a choice between one or the other. While you are considering your choice, ponder whether or not you have free will. Ten minutes later, think back on you making that choice. Since it has already happened, does that mean that the you ten minutes ago chosing the coin on the right were trapped by the fact that that was always the coin you chose?

Replay the coin choice thing again, but this time while chosing, ponder if you are simply destined to pick one coin or the other because a future you will know exactly what choice you made. And from some point forward, that will always have been the choice you made.


At least that is how I think about it. Just because the losties have gone back in time, doesn't necessarily mean their free will is an illusion. It's just, from their perspective, they haven't experienced what choices they have made yet. It will turn out that that was always the choices they made, but it really isn't much different than my little coin expiriment.

I agree. Jack had total free will. He chose not to operate on Ben. That was his choice. If he had chosen to operate he probably wouldnt have been successful leading us to the same basic outcome, Ben goes to the Others. Jack could have done whatever he wanted (which is pretty much what he did) and the Island or the Universe would "Course Correct" so it comes out the way its "Supposed" to. Free will does not mean you have control over events.

Exactly. We've been fed Course Correction since FBYE for a reason. Things had already happened for grown up Ben: he'd already become part of and leader of the Others. If Jack had tried saving Ben, another reason would have been needed to take him to the Others, but he would have gotten to that point regardless. Course correction.

Free will is individual, but its impact on the bigger picture is subject to many elements apart from one's free will. And I'm thinking Locke already knew this, and Jack's just realizing it now.

not accourding to everything we have been told, shown, explained, even episode titles refute this.

Whatever happened, happened.

Why another thread blaming Jack (there are like 5 already going), when Sayid shot him? Kate and Co. took him to the others, Ben himself rolled a flaming dharma bus through the compound to free the guy who actually shot him. Yet its all Jack's fault.

oh my goodness. who was the one who suggested ben go to the others? juliet.

who knows ben better than anyone aside from richard? juliet.

are we really going to sit back and deny that ben didn't share with her when he was trying to woo her about his past and how be became on the island? she didn't look like she wanted to do it, so to me, she knew EXACTLY what she was doing.

what could have been done to prevent it? she could have gone straight to jack a lot earlier than she did, get over her theatrics of being betrayed because he wouldn't operate because we all know that that was really selfish of jack since ben is a friggin KILLER and what he's done to everyone involved, and tell jack exactly what was going to happen if he didn't operate. the "he survived in the past, he'll survive without me" issue would have been explained. she could have told him that if he operated, ben would possibly NOT be the same man he is today.

now we can put juliet right up there with locke. they can form their own club. the "i don't like to tell the facts to anyone. i keep everything to myself".

it's about time that the blame is put on the correct person. jack is a bad bad man for not operating. but juliet sent a little boy to "lose his innocence".

How about a little personal responsibility? If Ben doesnt set a bus on fire, send it crashing into a dharma hut and then free Sayid, who he believes is the enemy of the DI, then Ben doesnt get shot.

Ben is who he is because of his choices. I'll grant his Dad holds responsibility for being a bad parent and treating poor little Ben so terribly. In The Man Behind the Curtain and even this episode I felt for little Ben, it was sad how his father treated him, yet it doesnt change the fact that everything that happened to him was set in motion by him.

If a youth in this country commits robbery, he is responsible, granted his enviroment and age may be taken into consideration when he is sentenced but he still must own responsiblity for his acts.

bears,i applaud you. everyone is so quick to blame jack in this. all because he's a boy. he's 14 and in some places old enough to be tried as an adult for an adult crime.

bears,i applaud you. everyone is so quick to blame jack in this. all because he's a boy. he's 14 and in some places old enough to be tried as an adult for an adult crime.
Why the need to blame anyone? A case could be made that Hugu and Sun are just as culpable. If either of them hadn't gotten on 316, maybe there wouldn't have been enough proxies or whatever for any of them to get back and the plane would have cruised on to Guam.

ETA: I think everyone had a part in how things turned out. And I think the Jack hate is just legacy stuff that has been accrued over time. "Shut up, Locke", "no, don't tell Kate, Juliette" etc etc.

I don't think Jack made the right decision but only in regards to his own peace of mind. I don't blame Jack for how Ben turned out. I don't blame any of them, even Ben. Things happened as they did. Sometimes things spiral out of control. /shrug

there was an urgency to save a little boy. i understand that totally. he, to them, is not the same person as the man that did the horrible things. but i agree with you, roybatty, that jack is used as a so called punching bag to blame all on him. and that's why i posted the reply about juliet. he did refuse to operate, but if juliet had talked to him after her surgery, maybe she could have changed his mind.

but then, whatever happened wouldn't have happened. so, i rest my case.

There is no possible way it could have been avoided, plain and simple. This still seems to be the one thing people can't grasp the episode title says it all. I still think they should be saying whatever happens, happened, due to the timeline it hasn't happend for the Losties just yet therefore it is going to happen meaing it happens.

Whatever happens, happened. Learn it, love it.

I also think people are being a little too hard on Jack, I can't believe I just typed that let alone that I think it, but we all seem to forget that Jack was dealing with a remarkably difficult set of circumstances and he did the best he could. For the record I've said many times that Jack was getting in the way of destiny on several occasions, it's nice to get confirmation for Jack himself that he feels the same way.

Says a lot about our society -- everybody needs to play the blame game. We could go back to the first couple of seasons and blame some one for the chain of events. If Locke hadn't opened that hatch. If Charlie hadn't killed Ethan. If Michael hadn't let Ben free. If Michael and Jin hadn't built that raft.

This leads to that leads to that and it all will happen anyway...

Back to the OP -- I love the idea that Juliet is a grand manipulator as well and maybe has been changed into an Other as well. And there are a lot of signs that point to this. The trial where she was branded. She speaks Latin. Her secretive cahoots with Ben. Back in Season 3, when she took Sun for the ultrasound and she speaks into the recorder to update Ben, she tells him she hates him. But she does it anyway. We assumed that she was doing it because she wanted off the island so badly -- but what if she knew she HAD to do it. Ben was filling her in every step of the way. Of course, this isn't something she could tell Jack or any of the other Losties because they'd never believe her.

This all hinges, again, on the theory that Ben has lived these events over and over until course correction is met.

I also think people are being a little too hard on Jack, I can't believe I just typed that let alone that I think it,
because no matter how you feel about a character, after a while, it's enough!

and now, i do get what you are saying. they have no control over what is happening in that episode because they are living it for the first time in their memory. in the past, jack refused to operate and juliet recommended the others. kate made the finale decision. maybe that's why she seems to have some kind of "connection" with ben in the past 4 seasons. she feels responsible for what he's turned into.
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Back to the OP -- I love the idea that Juliet is a grand manipulator as well and maybe has been changed into an Other as well. And there are a lot of signs that point to this. The trial where she was branded. She speaks Latin. Her secretive cahoots with Ben. Back in Season 3, when she took Sun for the ultrasound and she speaks into the recorder to update Ben, she tells him she hates him. But she does it anyway. We assumed that she was doing it because she wanted off the island so badly -- but what if she knew she HAD to do it. Ben was filling her in every step of the way. Of course, this isn't something she could tell Jack or any of the other Losties because they'd never believe her.

This all hinges, again, on the theory that Ben has lived these events over and over until course correction is met.

and think about when she was branded. it was all for jack's sake. first, jack is let out of his cell approximately right when juliet is being led to her cell, handcuffed, i might add. then jack is in the outside cage when the "sheriff" is being paraded by. he asks someone (can't remember who) who she is and what she's doing, which ben knew that jack would. jack has to know everything. they tell him that she is on trial for killing that dude other. so cue the heartstrings. jack offers to stay with ben, to ":want to stay and help him" so that juliet can go free. after the trial, she is branded and jack is there to tend to her wounds. BUT, we see in a later episode that ben still has her under his thumb. he gets her to stay behind and be handcuffed to kate, conning her and the losties that she has been dumped when really she is suppose to send secret info to ben. now, i know she doesn't follow through, but she initially intends to.

so, the branding......it was all for show. it was all for her alligence with the others.

mark my words, it will come up later.

she feels responsible for what he's turned into.
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That assumes she was told anything about it by Ben, I think she knows much more then she is letting on, she always seems to be silent when important things are happening, maybe because she knows there is nothing she can do to change or stop them from happening, I think your 'branded' comment is interesting. I wonder what it meant, of course it will probably be revealed later when they reveal the greater mystery of the Island, mainly it's history.

My my...How one's stubborness or stupidity can have devastating effects.

Jack had the fate of Ben Linus not once, but twice and screwed up both times. In 2004, Jack had the perfect opportunity to kill Ben, with Juliet asking and willing to help, but he didn't... Even Richard Alpert was doubting Ben's capabilities as a leader. Instead, Jack saves him. We all know what that did for the people on the Kahana, some of the 06 and for John Locke. All this because Ben is an Other with a hidden agenda.

Why is Ben an Other?

Because Jack had the chance to save him without the help of the Others, but he didn't...thus taking away the chance for Ben to grow up "normal" and most likely giving the Losties a totally different future.

How is he going to redeem himself after that? I hope the Others ask Christian Shephard for a sacrifice...

Eric


What's weird is...the more I think about this...the more I think that Jack not getting involved to save him, was actually planned in advance. Not only the shooting itself with Sayid...but also...with Jack, not helping. Yes..."whatever happened happened"...

If Ben gives them this information before they get to the island...this would explain alot. *see my Sayid theory and Calliope's in my sig*.

In other words...

Jack and Sayid spent the most time with Ben before returning...

Sayid has to be assisted in being set free...in order that he can shoot Ben...Jack can't interfere...in order that he can be taken as a child to Richard...and it sets off the entire chain all over again.

Believe me...I was pissed at first...but the more I think about it, this adds up. Why?

Because Ben always has a plan.

wouldn't it just be ben to have led them into the 70's and told them what to do.


I think your 'branded' comment is interesting.

thanks. i have a lot more to say, but it would be going off topic. it's a sensitive issue since a lot of people don't want juliet to be an other anymore. what did sawyer say to kate, "a tiger don't change it's stripes"? something like that.

in a nutshell, i think that whole episode(stranger in strange land) was for jack's benefit. if she was not an other anymore, then why did she let ben handcuff her to kate and leave her behind?

wouldn't it just be ben to have led them into the 70's and told them what to do.

You know what else made me think this? Jack's reaction to Kate when she told him never to ask about Aaron (he might know the outcome of that as well), Jack's reaction to hello...being in the 70's. Cause I don't know about anyone here but if I went back to the 70's? I'd be like screaming...it's not exactly like Jack isn't known for screaming when he wants answers. Maybe the knowledge that he's gained from experiences off island...and the knowledge that Ben might have shared are what has made him suddenly so accepting?

By the show's stated rules on time travel, that is simply not possible. Ben would have always been as he was. There is no changing the future regardless how Jack acted.

I disagree -- Whatever happened happened... but as the thread title implies, it didn't HAVE to happen, but it DID happen. It's exactly the same as seeing the flash-forward of Kate and Jack at the airport at the end of season 3. That doesn't mean that all the events that lead up to that point are suddenly stripped of free will. That just means that that is what DID happen. That is what all the choices and actions that WERE chosen DID lead to.

The only difference with being in "the past", is that now the characters have some of the future-knowledge that the audience had before. But living in 1977 doesn't mean having less free will than living in 2004. They can choose to do whatever they want. But the one path that each character WILL choose is going to lead to a result that they are all already familiar with. If they were to go with a different path than the one that they WILL go with, it would have resulted in a different future than the one that DID happen.
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Jack's reaction to hello...being in the 70's. Cause I don't know about anyone here but if I went back to the 70's? I'd be like screaming...it's not exactly like Jack isn't known for screaming when he wants answers.
I'm just proud of him for not crying.

I disagree -- Whatever happened happened... but as the thread title implies, it didn't HAVE to happen, but it DID happen. It's exactly the same as seeing the flash-forward of Kate and Jack at the airport at the end of season 3. That doesn't mean that all the events that lead up to that point are suddenly stripped of free will. That just means that that is what DID happen. That is what all the choices and actions that WERE chosen DID lead to.

The only difference with being in "the past", is that now the characters have some of the future-knowledge that the audience had before. But living in 1977 doesn't mean having less free will than living in 2004. They can choose to do whatever they want. But the one path that each character WILL choose is going to lead to a result that they are all already familiar with. If they were to go with a different path than the one that they WILL go with, it would have resulted in a different future than the one that DID happen.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you because I agree with you completely. I must have not communicated it exactly as I was thinking it. I blame it on watching too much Lost and all those vague scenes that can be interpreted several ways.
;)

So, if the Losties had chosen to act differently, the future we've already seen would have also been different, not what we already know? Or, something like that. :)

I've read a lot of posts commenting on how they didn't get Jack's inaction. They couldn't see the leap he'd made, it seemed abrupt. However, I rewatched 316 last night and if you view Jack in WHH in that context, it all makes perfect sense.

I think Jack let go of his stubborn clinging to science-only a while ago, off island. The drunken, addicted suicidal man we see is already on the brink of either giving up, or turning to faith even though such a concept is against his very nature. Meeting Ben at Hoffs gave him a reason to hope: we can go back. His willingness to cooperate with the enemy showed he was accepting a different POV.

Yet, he struggled and I think in 316, you can almost see the exact moment where he gives himself over to 'faith' completely. He's skeptical of their return being so simple at first: 'so, we just get on that plane and hope we get back?' Later, he realises it worked. It actually worked.

He's told about finding 'when' the island would be by Hawking. When he returns, they're 'way back when', in the 70s. Another point validated, sort of. Hence the lack of hysterics that would usually ensue from 'old' Jack.

He resists the thought of using Locke as a proxy, and is then hit in the face (not literally!) by Christian's shoes. Again, fate is doing the work. He puts the shoes on Locke, despite feeling a bit mad for doing it. So, we see he's started cooperating with 'Fate' to an extent. Yet, he's afraid of the letter, and seeks to get rid of it.

At the airport, we can virtually see excitement, coupled with confusion and a lingering incredulity: he's thrilled to see Kate, Sun, Hurley. He tells Hurley to leave Ben alone and then, we have the reappearance of the letter, followed by Jack's convo with Kate about 'this is supposed to happen'. Followed by Lapidus: the final nail, so to speak. Jack looks really excited, and I saw this as the moment he bought completely into Fate. He's a true convert now.

I even found it rather intriguing that the plane starts to rock about precisely as Jack finishes reading Locke's note. Farfetched, perhaps. But still... I felt like Jack needed to read Locke's words, somehow.

The point of this convoluted post is simple: in light of 316 and the progress Jack makes toward Fate, I found his 'I'm supposed to be here/ I'm not supposed to help little Ben' not just acceptable, but extremely logical. It didn't seem to come out of left field, nor was it hard to swallow, or fueled by negativity. He's driven by fate, searching for his true purpose. He's made the switch. I think he truly believed he wasn't supposed to do a thing at that point.

Sorry if this is irrelevant to this thread; on re-reading this I suspect it might be. But I'll throw it out there anyway :)

So, if the Losties had chosen to act differently, the future we've already seen would have also been different, not what we already know? Or, something like that. :)

Yes, exactly. The decisions we are seeing them make now lead to events we have already seen happen. It's definitely weird to see the effect before the cause. And even weirder for people that experience the effect to actually BE the cause. That's one of the things I find truly compelling about this show.

Me too. Further I am bit disappointed that people seem to think "whatever happened, happened," means "whatever happened HAD to happen". I think that excuses the characters of any culpability for their choices. It seems like this is being used selectively to defend characters people like. These same people pushing this idea are also saying we should be holding Ben responsible for his choices. Well, if Jack's choices don't matter, then neither should Ben's. It is all Fate. Hey, Sayid is one of my favorite characters. Who cares if Sayid shot a kid? None of this is his fault. That kid was always going to be injured and saved by the Others. Who cares if Jack ignored a dying kid? That kid was always going to be turned over the Others. Who cares if Juliet, Kate and Sawyer all conspired to sell Ben's soul to Richard? None of it matters anyway. By extrapolation, who cares that Ben allowed the freighter to blow up? Those people were all meant to die anyway.

I don't believe that. I believe all the characters *could* have done things differently. But, they didn't. Obviously they didn't because we have already seen how everything turned out. Further, I think this interpretation would lead to a pretty boring show. If nothing any of our characters do matters, then why should I care about them? It is all Fate. They are all just facilitating the will of Fate.

So, yeah. In that whole fate vs. free will argument, I am coming down hard on the side of free will.

But would you say that, in terms of the Losties at least knowing about their (and Ben's) futures, they couldn't make any different decisions now, because the future's already played out? What I mean is (sorry if I'm confused!) that there isn't any point in considering 'what ifs' because that particular future (evil Ben etc) is set. And everything happening and being done in the 70s is naturally going to lead to the 00s, in a sense?

If Jack hadn't encountered Ben in the 00s, he would have operated on kid Ben because he wouldn't have hated him, nor operated on his spine in ID. But since he had met older Ben and been messed about by him, he didn't? Ugh! I'm confused again...

Is it merely that within the overall timeline, our guys are going back and forth (to further their own timelines)? So their 70s choices are being affected by their 00 experiences. Which implies they do have free will, it's just that their actions are coloured by what they've already been through in the 00s.

Help! :)

Me too. Further I am bit disappointed that people seem to think "whatever happened, happened," means "whatever happened HAD to happen". I think that excuses the characters of any culpability for their choices. It seems like this is being used selectively to defend characters people like. These same people pushing this idea are also saying we should be holding Ben responsible for his choices. Well, if Jack's choices don't matter, then neither should Ben's. It is all Fate. Hey, Sayid is one of my favorite characters. Who cares if Sayid shot a kid? None of this is his fault. That kid was always going to be injured and saved by the Others. Who cares if Jack ignored a dying kid? That kid was always going to be turned over the Others. Who cares if Juliet, Kate and Sawyer all conspired to sell Ben's soul to Richard? None of it matters anyway. By extrapolation, who cares that Ben allowed the freighter to blow up? Those people were all meant to die anyway.

I don't believe that. I believe all the characters *could* have done things differently. But, they didn't. Obviously they didn't because we have already seen how everything turned out. Further, I think this interpretation would lead to a pretty boring show. If nothing any of our characters do matters, then why should I care about them? It is all Fate. They are all just facilitating the will of Fate.

So, yeah. In that whole fate vs. free will argument, I am coming down hard on the side of free will.

The point is more towards Course Correction. When it comes to Time Travel, you can't change anything because the Universe will course correct the fate. It doesn't really take away from free will of the characters. And I think, in the end, there will be loops until everything is course corrected right.

I think in the loop we are seeing things are off because the rules have been changed, by Ben and Widmore. What happens, happened. But what will happen is now off and needs to be corrected. I think that is the part of the story we will be seeing with Ben, Locke, Sun, Desmond. And eventually the rest when the incident occurs and they will all be together again.

Right, I don't think whatever happened, happened has to contradict free will. It was Sayid's choice, his free will, to shoot Ben. His intent was to kill, but it didn't happen. Just as in any reality in which time travel is not an option, a person may make the choice to kill someone, it doesn't mean they will succeed. They are not living in their past. They are living in their present which happens reside Ben's (and others') past.

I'm just proud of him for not crying.

See...now I would have preferred the screaming..or crying (I happen to love to see him do either)...than the non reaction. But I guess after all the crap they've been thru...not much will shock him....except maybe when he finds out that Locke is alive.

Sounds like we're all agreed (the last several of us to post anyway). Semantics are so incredibly difficult in this situation. In one sense it's completely true that they had to make the choices we're seeing them make. But it's also completely true that they were complete free to make any choice they wanted.

That reminds me of something the great quantum physicist Niels Bohr said: "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth."

This is the only way I've ever been able to conceive of TT happening, and it's natural way I tend to think of it. Every other way introduces impossibilities or absurdities too great for my mind to accept. So naturally, I'm very happy that TPTB seem to see it the way I do. However, I've really enjoyed these discussions, because 1) they have brought out a lot of logical subtleties of the of such scenarios (including those involving free will), that I've never really noticed before, and 2) it really brings out the interesting problem of trying to communicate concepts that transcend time with the English language (or any human language). I think, after childhood, we mostly tend to think in terms of language instead of in pure thought apart from terms. In other words, I think our language can tend to limit our thinking if we're not careful. And these conversations have really illustrated some of those limitations to me, not least of all in the verbe tenses available in language. There's no verb tense for an action that is both in the future and the past from the same perspective.

The Bible has the same challenge, in trying to explain a time-transcendent God ("he who is and who was and who is to come") to a time-bound people in a human language. And it seems that it perhaps actually solves it by creating a new verb tense in the name of God, YHWH, which may be a time-transcendent tense of the verb "to be".

A point that seems to have been overlooked is that Ben actually WANTED to be an Other. Don't you remember the episode where Ben was pleading with Richard. He was told to be patient.

Jack has done Ben a favour! By not intervening and possibly saving him, Ben got his hearts desire. ;)

Cheers, Ana

The Losties have incomplete foreknowledge. They may know the 'effect', but for the most part they are still in the dark as to the 'cause' until their present plays out. They may have known that Ben turned out to be who he was. But they didn't know HOW he got that way. Which was through their own actions and decisions.

Thus, they were free always to make whatever choices they wished in their present. Their choices DID MATTER, because that's what they have control over. If Ben still survives, why damn your soul by trying to kill the boy? If he still survives why refuse medical aid to a dying boy and compromise your ethics?

I think that Kate and Sawyer, when they were told Ben would be stripped of his innocence, they realised at this moment that all the steps taken had led them to this point. They, as a group, through individual choices had caused this. But that didn't mean that they had no choice in what happened. It's all a matter of perspective in terms of looking at events on the timeline.

Whatever they chose to do is what happened. They still have free will. They still have moral responsibility for their actions, even if they choose to do nothing. Jack didn't know that his inaction would directly lead to Juliet resorting to suggesting they take Ben to the others. Pretty darn ironic. Just as it was to see Sayid do something he himself knew was extremely evil (judging by his anguish over it), and know that he was the catalyst for Ben's transformation into the very man he despised.

By the show's stated rules on time travel, that is simply not possible. Ben would have always been as he was. There is no changing the future regardless how Jack acted.


Yes, that is true; but HOW he got that way CAN change. Remember Charlie and Desmond. Desmond keeps saving Charlie's life, but he said that Charlie WILL die.


This is an example of Imaginary time intersecting with Real Time to make sure that you get from point A to point B.

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Jack's inaction my have caused a change.


In the previews for tonight's show, I saw a slight difference in Ben; not his actions, but his demeanor.

Yes, that is true; but HOW he got that way CAN change. Remember Charlie and Desmond. Desmond keeps saving Charlie's life, but he said that Charlie WILL die.


This is an example of Imaginary time intersecting with Real Time to make sure that you get from point A to point B.



This may be true for events in what we used to know as the present. When referring to 1977, things are happening exactly how the DI would have witnessed them happen. It's not like there was one instance where Ben was saved by Jack and then became an Other later, and another instance (which we saw) where Jack doesn't save Ben, forcing them to take him to the Others. The events of 1977 happened one way and people that live through it (like Richard) remember that in events later in the show.

If things could be changed what would have been the result of Jack saving Ben? Very possibly a Ben with a memory that a person whom he believed to be an 'other' shot him. A Ben who worked against the others instead of for them. A Ben who suceeded in helping Dharma 'purge' the others instead of the other way around. For whatever reason..the island likes the others and wants to keep them around. Ben would in effect be working against the island.

That's just one scenario. The idea that Ben would become a normal harmless adult is the one that is assumed but that's not the only likely outcome. In reality there are many possibilities.

That's just one scenario. The idea that Ben would become a normal harmless adult is the one that is assumed but that's not the only likely outcome. In reality there are many possibilities.

There's many different possibilities for most situations, but that doesn't change how past events happened.

There's many different possibilities for most situations, but that doesn't change how past events happened.

That's why I started my post with the words IF things could be changed. I was just addressing the people who seemed to think that Ben 'might' have developed a different kinder gentler personality. If we actually think things through there are a lot of other things that would still have to be factored in. He would still have an abusive father etc etc etc.