It seems to me that we can draw one of three conclusions about the title of this week's episode:

1. John is the exception to this rule,

2. John's body is being inhabited or controlled by someone else, or

3. John never died in the first place.

This theory is a bit off the wall, but I think that Darlton may be setting us up. Ben told Sun that he was genuinely surprised by Locke's "resurrection", and that he believed it to be an exception to the rule...Consider the source.

We were also given multiple hints that John and Smokey may now be one and the same (John appearing from the bushes after Ben summoned Smokey, John exiting as Smokey entered, Smokey exiting as John entered, etc.)...I'm not so sure that TPTB would make the real answer so obvious.

The least obvious conclusion, and the one I haven't seen discussed yet, is that the Locke we saw in this episode is the same, flesh and blood, never-been-dead Locke we've seen in seasons 1-4. But how could this be, since we saw Ben kill John in his hotel room, and since the Locke we saw this week seemed so "enlightened"?

For the sake of argument, suppose that Ben is the underdog in the upcoming war, that he is working against Widmore, Eloise and Richard. Suppose that the reason these three have been pushing so hard for John to die and return to the island to be resurrected is that they have some inside knowledge about the power and motivations of the one who lives beneath the Temple. To pull an inside job on these three (and Smokey to boot), Ben would have to come up with quite a plan.

To insure that his plan went off without a hitch, Ben would probably have to keep it concealed from everyone else, including Locke himself. And if Ben were to manage to fake John's death, what about his "enlightenment"? I'm thinking that Ben has some first hand knowledge of how this process works, and John had certainly shown glimpses of island intuition previously (knowing when rain was coming, hearing Jacob's voice, etc.) Perhaps Ben knew that death wasn't the key to unlocking this inner power, but rather a faith in oneself.

Flame away.

resurrected all the way. baby!!!!

Oooh, I like it...so Locke becomes "enlightened" merely because he thinks he has been resurrected, which means he believes in himself and that he is special.

I thought Ben was protesting too much when Sun said Locke's death obviously must have all been a lie. He looked panicked, like she must not spread that rumor or believe it.

Back to point of view, "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" was obviously from Locke's point of view mostly with some Ben point of view scenes after he died. Maybe Ben worked "Jedi mind tricks" on Locke to make him think he was murdered when he wasn't, and that is what we saw...what Locke perceived as happening.

I just rewatched the scene in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham where Ben chokes John to see if there was any chance Ben didn't really kill him. I think it's pretty conclusive that Locke was dead. Ben leaves him hanging by his neck. And if John wasn't dead after the choking, he would be after hanging by his neck like that for awhile.

I suppose it could still be possible, but it would be a pretty hard sell.

I just rewatched the scene in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham where Ben chokes John to see if there was any chance Ben didn't really kill him. I think it's pretty conclusive that Locke was dead. Ben leaves him hanging by his neck. And if John wasn't dead after the choking, he would be after hanging by his neck like that for awhile.

Oh, there's no question -- Locke bit the big one. I was overjoyed to get the explanation this ep as to why Ben stopped him from suicide and then killed him in the same manner Locke himself had planned on using. and of course, it turned out to be a simpler answer than anyone -- me, at least -- had thought of: Ben stopped the suicide because he needed to get some information from Jon that would've died with him, and after that he didn't have the time to convince Jon to resume what he had been doing!

- mnw

(You're not the Roy Batty of Trufan Adventures are you?)

Oh, there's no question -- Locke bit the big one. I was overjoyed to get the explanation this ep as to why Ben stopped him from suicide and then killed him in the same manner Locke himself had planned on using. and of course, it turned out to be a simpler answer than anyone -- me, at least -- had thought of: Ben stopped the suicide because he needed to get some information from Jon that would've died with him, and after that he didn't have the time to convince Jon to resume what he had been doing!

This explanation seemed a bit weak at the time, and has become even less compelling given what we have learned since then. The two pieces of "information" Ben got from Locke in the hotel room were 1) that Jin was alive, and 2) that Eloise Hawking was the one who could get them back to the island. Well, we now know that Ben was already aware that Jin had survived, as he had seen future-Jin in the 70's. And do you really think that someone with Ben's connections would be unaware that one of "his people" was using a DHARMA station to track the location of the island?

I almost gave up on this theory when we saw Ben strangle Locke, but even after re-watching that scene, I'm not willing to put anything past the master of manipulation. And on four occasions since then we have been shown a wide shot of Ben's 'reincarnation' van parked right next to a moored sailboat with Illusion written in big red letters on its side. Coincidence, or a hint?

Hi, BF [and all]:

Found this medical reference, which may prove interesting:

A text-book of legal medicine and toxicology
By Frederick Peterson, Walter Stanley Haines
Published by W. B. Saunders & Co., 1904
Item notes: v. 2
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Oct 24, 2007

I tried to copy and paste the two relevent paragraphs related to
My Google search: feigned strangulation.

However I could get the text to copy for reproduction here.
Anyone interested can do the same search and go to page 45.

Very interesting. I conclude John Locke is alive. Feigned
strangulation warranted an entry in this 1904 medical text.

Ok, when the OP ends with "flame away", that sounds like a troll, no offense.

Ben never met time traveling JIn.
Ben choked the hell out of John. Feigned strangulation? BS in this situation.
Locke coming out of the Jungle as Ben spoke of an uncontrollable force was a great moment of irony: after all, Ben CAN'T control Locke.
Ben is humbled this episode, I don't think he was lying about much.
Locke was seen with Smokey several times in season 1, "chased" Smokey away when it approached Eko at the river. I think Smokey doesn't want Locke to see it being violent.

Ok, when the OP ends with "flame away", that sounds like a troll, no offense.
Ben never met time traveling JIn.


Uh yea he did, Jin was the one who found recently shot Ben but the writers pulled the dumb and unnecessary short-term amnesia.

This explanation seemed a bit weak at the time, and has become even less compelling given what we have learned since then. The two pieces of "information" Ben got from Locke in the hotel room were 1) that Jin was alive, and 2) that Eloise Hawking was the one who could get them back to the island.

Actually, I suppose I should've said I was overjoyed to have an explanation rather than the explanation, as I wasn't exactly sure what the information was that Ben referred to. In general, though, I have been greatly enjoying the infrequent "Bam! Here's an answer to one of your questions!" moments that have popped up in recent episodes.

As far as Locke, all I really know is that he's now got the aura of a major Stephen King baddie about him...

-- mnw

("I don't wanna get shot/And then dumped in the Dharma Plot!" - Roger Ramone)

Ok, when the OP ends with "flame away", that sounds like a troll, no offense.


Ben choked the hell out of John. Feigned strangulation? BS in this situation.


Yes, Ben choked the hell out of John; but perhaps not the life. That is the essence of the cited medical article. So, "BS" translates into opinion.

And yes, John emerging from the jungle after Ben says " .... is something I can't control" I saw a comic relief and foreshadowing; because after Ben's "judgment" it became a matter of fact.

Ok, when the OP ends with "flame away", that sounds like a troll, no offense.

Yeah, I probably should have phrased it differently. Since this idea goes against the grain, I just wanted to encourage constructive criticism :redface:.


Ben never met time traveling JIn.Well, I know that Ben's "amnesia" could account for him not remembering that Jin was there when he was shot, but Jin had also been working with LeFleur for the previous three years, and little Ben knew Jin's co-worker (Phil) by name.


Ben is humbled this episode, I don't think he was lying about much.He was lying to either Locke or Sun...

BEN: My god. You're alive.

LOCKE: Yes, I am.

BEN: I knew it. I knew this would happen.SUN: So you knew this would happen to Locke if we brought him back?

BEN: Sun, I had no idea it would happen.I still think that Ben always has a plan, and, just maybe, this plan included pulling the wool over the eyes of Richard, Charles, Eloise, and even John (at least temporarily). Another possible hint in this direction may have been the rabbit in the magic show at Ray's place. The magician called the bunny Fraidy Cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraidy_Cat_%28TV_series%29), possibly a parallel to the cartoon character of the same name, a cat who was on the last of his nine lives. We saw the bunny immediately prior to the scene where Jack put his dad's shoes on Locke (who, like Fraidy Cat, was in a box of his own). Maybe John's "resurrection" involved a little sleight of hand as well.

resurrected all the way. baby!!!!

I agree, I think Locke was resurrected, like Christian was.

Bicklefitch, in regards to your theory, how do you propose Ben managed to prevent anyone from detecting Locke's breathing? The Medusa spider's venom only causes paralysis for 8 hours, and Locke's body would have been seen by the Medical Examiner and the Mortician. So how does Ben address that issue?

I read each post in the thread and didn't see an explanation for this, but I apologize in advance if you had mentioned it already and I totally missed it.

Bicklefitch, in regards to your theory, how do you propose Ben managed to prevent anyone from detecting Locke's breathing? The Medusa spider's venom only causes paralysis for 8 hours, and Locke's body would have been seen by the Medical Examiner and the Mortician. So how does Ben address that issue?

No clue whatsoever, Todd. I know this theory is a stretch, but we've seen strange twists before.

No clue whatsoever, Todd. I know this theory is a stretch, but we've seen strange twists before.

Yes, we certainly have, so most theories (as long as there isn't proof within the show to disprove them) are indeed possible.

Now, even though I'm not on board with the theory yet, there are some things that could keep it alive so to speak. Locke's body was in control of Jill, so whatever Ben was doing to keep John appear dead (be it spider venom or whatever) Jill could have been adminstering it when Locke was with her. We also have Ben's secret box that he pulled out of the vent, so who knows what that contains.

As for the ME and the funeral home/mortician Ben seems to have people all over the place, so maybe he was able to arrange something.

Again, these aren't evidence to support the theory, but they do leave open the possibility that Ben is doing this.

This explanation seemed a bit weak at the time, and has become even less compelling given what we have learned since then. The two pieces of "information" Ben got from Locke in the hotel room were 1) that Jin was alive, and 2) that Eloise Hawking was the one who could get them back to the island. Well, we now know that Ben was already aware that Jin had survived, as he had seen future-Jin in the 70's. And do you really think that someone with Ben's connections would be unaware that one of "his people" was using a DHARMA station to track the location of the island?

I don't think Eloise Hawking has been one of Ben's people for a very long time. I think she's probably either on her own, or working for a third party that we don't know about. Ben and Charles both knew Eloise, but neither knew she had the key to finding the island, or they would have visited her long ago.

Ben: I know we can do this. Once we get them all in the same place... I don't know where we go from there, but we'll figure something out.
Locke: I know where we go. There's a woman here in Los Angeles.
Ben: (nonchalantly) A woman?
Locke: Yeah, I don't know exactly where, but she shouldn't be that hard to find. Her name is- is, uh... Eloise Hawking.
Ben: (looking up with death in his eyes) Eloise Hawking. You sure?

As I posted at the time of that episode, "<repeating the information>. You sure?" is the universal Hollywood cliche for "Now I've gotten all the information I need from you and I will kill you." And I thought it was pretty obvious that it was to get that information that he needed to save him, and that after he got it, it was easiest to just kill him himself.

Well, i'm not entirely sure the Hoffs/Drawler funeral home is 100% legit. Seems to me that going through the mortitians round would kill you if you weren't already dead. My guess is that Ben and Christian were both dead and both now walking around. Or as Charlie summed it up. "i'm dead, but i'm not dead."

There seems to be a lot of speculation going around that both Ben and Charles may have been using information gleaned from the time traveling lostaways to gain an advantage in the upcoming war. Could this be why Widmore told John that the wrong side might win if he didn't return to the island? Perhaps he had foreknowledge that Richard's desire was to have a resurrected Locke as leader of the Others, and wanted to piggyback on John's return trip.

Knowing that "what happened, happened", how could Ben work against his nemesis? Maybe the only card left in his deck of tricks at this point was to use Locke as part of a long con, faking his death as a way to use John to foil the plans of Widmore, and to work behind Richard's back at the same time.

Is Locke Locke (either re-animated or never-really-dead), or is he Smokey? And if it's the last, how would that work? I suppose Smokey could have somehow "copied" the body once it arrived on Craphole, just as it may have done with Christian. But then what are the Christian and Charlie we saw in Los Angeles? Possibly Smokey nanites previously deposited in the brains of Jack and Hurley, causing them to hallucinate Christian and Charlie respectively?

[
100%
As I posted at the time of that episode, "<repeating the information>. You sure?" is the universal Hollywood cliche for "Now I've gotten all the information I need from you and I will kill you." And I thought it was pretty obvious that it was to get that information that he needed to save him, and that after he got it, it was easiest to just kill him himself.


Saying "Are you sure" always means "I'm going to kill you"? No way! I've heard that in thousands of movies and tv programs when there was no homicide. It's the standard response to any mildly surprising information, like "The microwave burnt my burrito" or "Your mother is on the phone." They say it on sitcoms all the time, with no homicidal intent at all.

***Mod edited*** Locke got killed, and came back alive on the Island. It's done.