I hereby dub the dude who was posing as Locke "Esau".

-I think Esau is the smoke monster.

-Esau is evil.

-Jacob will become the white smoke monster.

-Jacob is good.

-The two are brothers.

That's all.

Agreed. all goes back to the bible, as much of this show does...

I always wondered if there could be a white smoker monster, but I hadn't pondered that since season 2 or so.

I also agree "Esau" is a good name in lieu of an official name.

I don't know if I buy into Jacob/Esau being good/bad though. I don't know about you, but Jacob came off as a bit fishy to me, a tad bit smug. Outwardly he was gentle, but there's something beneath his demeanor that comes off as somewhat sinister.

They seemed like brothers with different outlooks as to the worth of people with regards to "free will". It was like an experiment to decide if humans can live together without warfare. Jacob must have expected something was up because he told Illana he needed her and it seemed that she had already suffered from her last use.

Jacob appears to be a big picture kind of guy. In other words, he's not above some collateral damage (i.e. Nadia) to see his agenda through. I think it's telling that he only made himself known AFTER certain terrible events happened to the characters. The exception being the Kwon wedding. I agree he acts a bit smug, but if you were as old and powerful as he you'd come across as a tad arrogant as well. It comes with the territory.

I just wonder what it is that keeps Esau from killing Jacob himself. Why does he have to have someone else do it?

I'm guessing something similar to what kept Ben and Widmore from killing each other. Whatever it is that holds all this together won't let these people kill each other. And I really like that guy being Esau

I just wonder what it is that keeps Esau from killing Jacob himself. Why does he have to have someone else do it?

maybe the way Ben and Charles cant kill eachother? it just wouldnt work for some reason ...

I hereby dub the dude who was posing as Locke "Esau".

-I think Esau is the smoke monster.

-Esau is evil.

-Jacob will become the white smoke monster.

-Jacob is good.

-The two are brothers.

That's all.

I love it. It makes a lot of sense.
Esau is the brother of Jacob (whom God renamed Israel) -- the patriarch and founder of the Israelites -- in the biblical Book of Genesis.[1] Esau was the oldest son of Isaac and Rebekah and the grandson of Abraham. Jacob and Esau were fraternal twins;[2][3][4] Rebekah bore Esau first and Jacob was birthed second, holding onto Esau's heel.[5] Thus, this subsequent occurrence traditionally entitled Esau to inherit the wealth of his father after his death.


Lionhearted-I don't know if I buy into Jacob/Esau being good/bad though. I don't know about you, but Jacob came off as a bit fishy to me, a tad bit smug. Outwardly he was gentle, but there's something beneath his demeanor that comes off as somewhat sinister.

I was thinking the exact same thing. We have all been told by Ben and the others that Jacob is the good guys, but I agree with Frank, if they have to state it, than it's probably not true.

Do we know that Ben and Charles can't kill each other? We know Ben said he couldn't to Charles. It could just be a rule the Others live by or it could be more of a hard and fast physical law like it seems to be with Jacob and Esau. Ben and Charles both seem extremely mortal, as do all the Others but Richard. Jacob and Esau definitely seem more than mortal. It could be that they can only die by special means and apparently not by each other, at least directly.

it would be interesting if they turned out to be Jacob and Esau for, well, SO many reasons but specifically in relation to the show's original catalyst - I recall JJ&co saying that the concept was thought up due in some regards to 911 and the conflict between Christians and Muslims (or rather Arab nations and the Western world) is traced back to that brotherly division, when Jacob (the father's favorite) stole Esau's birthright... and that other dude WAS pretty hairy, ha

Except the Judaic and Arabic peoples are descended from Isaac and Ishmael. Not Jacob and Esau.

The conflict between Arab nations and Western nations goes further back. It's also tied to the fact that Abraham had two sons: Ishmael (born first but from a concubine) and Isaac (born of Sarah, Abraham's wife). Sarah insisted that Ishmael and his mother be banished, and Isaac's descendents became the nation of Israel. Abraham then Isaac then Jacob.... Isaac was the father of Jacob and Esau. Esau was a man of the wilderness, hunting, etc... and Jacob stayed around the camp and eventually stole his brother's birthright by deceiving his brother and father with the help of his mother.

I've thought for a while that there really aren't, "good guys," just light and dark, day and night or light and shadow. That is what Locke says, two sides, one light, one dark.

dangit... and I'm a preacher's daughter, haha, got too carried away with my analogy and messed up the facts... oh well, I stick with my Jacob & Esau vote :)

well the Biblical Jacob WAS sort of smug, I mean he DID steal the birthright from his brother so "why wouldn't you want to kill him?"

Jacob didn't steal Esau's birthright. Esau thought so little of it that he sold it to Jacob for something to eat. Jacob did steal the final blessing from Easu. Isaac was blind so Rebeca, the mother of twins, and Jacob came up with a scheme to disguise Jacob as Easu then ask for the blessing. Isaac was fooled and gave the blessing to Jacob. When Esau found out what had happened he threatened to kill Jacob. At that point Jacob decided to run away to his uncle Laban.

Esau was Isaac's favorite and Jacob was Rebeca's favorite.

Jacob's grandfather was Abraham. Isaac was the son of Abraham The descendants of Jacob's were the Hebrews who eventually became known as Jews.

I saw them more as God's with the Island as their experiment/playground/petri dish.

The statue to me looked like Tawaret (the goddess of fertility) and also mistress of the horizon. From the Taweret Wiki entry

Since Apep was viewed as residing below the horizon, and only present at night, evil during the day then was envisaged as being a result of Taweret's maleficence.or "What lies beneath the shadow of the statue?"

Apep was the god/deification of chaos and evil. So therefore (going on the way they were dressed in the opening scene) Apep is the guy who wasn't Jacob. In mythology Apep had numerous run ins with Ra (god of the Sun, or light in this case) so does this make Jacob Ra?

I saw them more as God's with the Island as their experiment/playground/petri dish.

The statue to me looked like Tawaret (the goddess of fertility) and also mistress of the horizon. From the Taweret Wiki entry

or "What lies beneath the shadow of the statue?"

Apep was the god/deification of chaos and evil. So therefore (going on the way they were dressed in the opening scene) Apep is the guy who wasn't Jacob. In mythology Apep had numerous run ins with Ra (god of the Sun, or light in this case) so does this make Jacob Ra?

It's not Tawaret, the statue is the Egyptian God, Sobek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek

It's not Tawaret, the statue is the Egyptian God, Sobek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek

This still works as Sobek was merged with Ra at one point I think.

Also is it definitely Sobek? Have TPTB come out and said it? I find it strange they still haven't shown the front of it yet.

This is SO like Myst!!! Two brothers, which one do you trust?! Hmmm....maybe neither one! Though Jacob does seem to be the "good" one, but we'll see...

I LOVE THIS FINALE!!!!!!!!!

I've thought for a while that there really aren't, "good guys," just light and dark, day and night or light and shadow. That is what Locke says, two sides, one light, one dark.

The character who is Not Jacob is going to kill the people on the Ajira flight so I can't see him as being good. He doesn't want people coming to the island.

I saw them more as God's with the Island as their experiment/playground/petri dish.

The statue to me looked like Tawaret (the goddess of fertility) and also mistress of the horizon. From the Taweret Wiki entry


That opening scene gave me the feeling of the two of them being gods as well. Messing with mortals to see what they will do to each other etc. A lot like the Greek gods are portrayed in some tales.

And the statue is bears the most resemblance to Tawaret.

I agree, dude. It's Tawaret.

I also want to add, if Jacob does become a spirit like smokey, perhaps it will be in the form of a bird, like what was seen on the tapestry. That would be cool (Maybe it'll be like the Hurley Bird. "Huuuuuurlleeey!" hehe.).

But the while smoke theory raises the question that if Esau is smokey, how did his human body die, or more importantly, who killed him? I think maybe Jacob brought someone from the Black Rock there to kill Esau.

In the Book of Jubilees (which is neither part of the Jewish nor most Christian canons), Esau's father, Isaac, compels Esau to swear not to attack or kill Jacob after Isaac has died. However, after the death of Isaac, the sons of Esau convince their father to lead them, and hired mercenaries, against Jacob in order to kill Jacob and his family and seize their wealth, (especially the portion of Isaac's wealth that Isaac had left to Jacob upon his death). In the ensuing battle, Jacob kills Esau with an arrow. The sons of Jacob then defeat the rest of the attackers despite overwhelming odds.

Some of the sons of Esau are spared, but they are sworn to serve and pay fealty to Jacob.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau

Just a tidbit: Jacob's name means "deceiver," or "the one who grabs." In his early life he is not all goodness and light (i.e. the part about conning his brother out of his inheritance.) Later Jacob wrestles with the angel, and gets renamed (by angelic fiat) Israel. The wiki page on Jacob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob)describes it thus:

There, a mysterious being appeared ("man", Genesis 32:24, 28; or "God", Genesis 32:28, 30, Hosea 12:3, 5; or "angel", Hosea 12:4), and the two wrestled until daybreak. When the being saw that he did not overpower Jacob, he touched Jacob on the sinew of his thigh (the gid hanasheh, גיד הנשה), and as a result, Jacob developed a limp (Genesis 32:31). Because of this, "to this day the people of Israel do not eat the sinew of the thigh that is on the hip socket" (Genesis 32:32). This incident is the source of the mitzvah of porging.[13]

Jacob then demanded a blessing, and the being declared that from then on, Jacob would be called יִשְׂרָאֵל, Israel (Yisra`el, meaning "one that struggled with the divine angel" (Josephus), "one who has prevailed with God" (Rashi), "a man seeing God" (Whiston), "he will rule as God" (Strong), or "a prince with God" (Morris), from Hebrew: שרה‎, "prevail", "have power as a prince").[14] Jacob asked the being's name, but he refused to answer. Afterwards Jacob named the place Penuel (Penuw`el, Peniy`el, meaning "face of God"),[15] saying "I have seen God face to face and lived."

Because of the ambiguous and varying terminology, and because he refused to reveal his name, there are varying views as to whether this being was a man, an angel, or God. Josephus uses only the terms "angel", "divine angel", and "angel of God", describing the struggle as no small victory. According to Rashi, the being was the guardian angel of Esau himself, sent to destroy Jacob before he could return to the land of Canaan. Trachtenberg theorized that the being refused to identify itself for fear that, if its secret name was known, it would be conjurable by incantations.[16] Literal Christian interpreters like Henry M. Morris say that the stranger was "God Himself and, therefore, Christ in His preincarnate state", citing Jacob's own evaluation and the name he assumed thereafter, "one who fights victoriously with God", and adding that God had appeared in the human form of the Angel of the LORD to eat a meal with Abraham in Genesis 18.[17]

Someone may already have mentioned this, but it seems to me that Jacob and "Esau" are almost spirits representing Life and Death,

Jacob:
The first time we see him he's dressed in white and is busy weaving a tapestry, an act of creation. When not taking matters into his own hands, we see Jacob's work done through the Hostiles/Others, living, flesh and blood agents of his will. Under his rule, we've seen the Island's power heal the sick, cure the lame and bring a young Ben Linus back from the brink of death: that his touch appears to revive the defenestrated John Locke and the current good health that the previously bandaged and bed-ridden Illana enjoys are also telling. Finally, there is the fact that Jacob has apparently been able to greatly prolong both his and Richard's lives as well.

"Esau:"
When we first see Esau, however, he is dressed in black and immediately sets himself up in an antagonistic role focusing on destruction, revenge and endings. Despite what he told Locke, the fact that Christian guided Locke to this "destiny" seems to put him in Esau's camp. This, along with the Monster's apparent alliance to UnLocke, seems to indicate that Esau chooses to speak through the dead. The fact that his spirit also appears able to possess or impersonate the dead and assume their memories points to an intrinsic connection to death or the spirit world.

What does everyone else think?

On the point of Jacob being a white Smoke Monster, remember Locke told Mr. Eko that the Smoke Monster he saw was not black, but a beautiful white light. After Eko got killed by the Smoke Monster, Locke told Sayid the black Smoke Monster killed Eko for a reason and also was the thing that brought them all to the Island.

Just some more evidence that the Black Shirt guy is Esau. Here is the casting call for The Incident
I will spoiler tag it just in case...
[JASON]
Any ethnicity, late 30s-60s. Former soldier. A leader of men. Smart but more than that – he is wise. Strong and straightforward. The words he says are always listened to and they carry gravitas. GUEST STAR two episodes. May lead to recurrings. Looking for someone very interesting and very special for this role...

[SAMUEL]
Any ethnicity, 40s-60s. A corporate raider looking to take over his next company. Powerful, devious and obtuse. He has a cunning intellect and a strong sense of danger. GUEST STAR two episodes. May lead to recurring. Looking for someone very interesting and very special for this role...


So I think we know that Jacob is Jason. The two name bear a very close resemblance. Now Samuel is a very similar sounding name to the Angel of Death "Samael", who in fact is the guardian angel of Esau.
Jacob and Esau are twins, and in Lost we had the spinoff novel "BAD TWIN" which Sawyer was reading in the Season 2 episode "The Long Con".

What we have surmised so far based on what we definitely know is that Jacob does exist. He has existed for a very long time. He has had contact with our 815ers in the past. And he is involved in some sort of a struggle with a man whose official name is "Man 2", but we have dubbed him as Esau (Jacob's brother whose birthright was stolen by Jacob and promised revenge by death) or Bocaj, Anti-Jacob, Smokey Incarnate, etc.

In the first scene of 'The Incident', Jacob was cooking a red herring (although such fish does not really exist) on a black rock. Just then, the man we call Esau comes striding out of the jungle:

"Want some fish?"
"No. I just ate"

The red herring directly points to the man we now known as Esau. Who isn't Esau at all, but is actually Smokey. Stay with me here, I'm going somewhere, I promise. The scent the writers are trying to make us follow is that the island is a struggle between two men. Instead, it is a struggle between a man and a metaphysical entity. Not I'm not ruling out that the man isn't an allusion to the brother of Esau, so to cover all bases, let's refer to him as Smokey/Esau. Here is what I think the story between them consist of:

The island is somewhat a representation of Eden, or paradise. We have expulsion of sin (traditionally a guardian with a flaming sword, but instead, we have a pillar of black smoke), the tree of life (Richard as proof and all the healing the island does), and the tree of knowledge (the rules and grumbles of higher consciousness). Jacob, for one reason or another, was given the duty to create the island's perfect society, and in order to do this, he would have his guardian with a flaming sword (Smokey/Esau) be the judge of the people he brought.

"You brought them here"

Jacob indeed keeps bringing people to the island to establish a utopia, but Smokey/Esau, with his scanning technology, deems that none of these people are fit, or "good", enough for the island, and even when he finds people he feels are "good" enough, they do nothing but..

"fight, destroy, and corrupt"

Smokey/Esau is a commentary on the formations of modern society. A place that begins with the most noble of intentions but ends up falling into ruin. Smokey/Esau acknowledges this flaw in man and pushes Jacob to give up and to take their goals into another direction (whatever those goals might be to Smokey/Esau, we have no idea). Jacob disagrees and instead, ostensibly, tries to find his perfect society. This is when Smokey/Esau throws down his fiery sword and gives Jacob the finger. They split off into two different ideologies. Jacob believing in his perfect utopia while Smokey/Esau believes that nothing can come of people besides dystopia.

"It only ends once. Everything before that is just progress"

The "rules" (much like the rules that prevents Ben from killing Widmore) prevents Smokey/Esau from harming Jacob (what is the nature of these rules? We do not know). What I can bet on is that the rules between Ben and Widmore probably has to do with either the code of law they follow, or some sort of temporal anomaly. I feel that the rules between Jacob and Smokey/Esau are in a more catastrophic nature). So Smokey/Esau hatches his plan to find a loophole, or someone else that would be fool enough to take out the island's main "deity". Instead of scanning the people Jacob brings to the island to see if they are good enough to live on the island, he instead scans them to see if they are easy enough to manipulate. Enter John Locke:

"Your psych profile said you're amenable to coercion"

When Locke met smokey, he described it as a "bright light" and "beautiful". What Smokey/Esau saw, instead, was a pathetic fool, broken and in shambles, and a perfect candidate for his loophole. Smokey's meeting with Eko can be explained as well. Smokey/Esau tries to find many vessels, and when he found Eko (a man tied to his dead brother [who ironically was on the island] and is profoundly spirtual), he found that he can exploit these characterstics for his plan. But when Eko refused to repent in front of Evil Yemi, Smokey/Esau realized that Eko was of no use and hence disposed of.

I forgot to mention, I think it is firmly established that Smokey can assume the identities of those dead on the island. Christian, Yemi, Alex, and now Locke serve as prominent examples. Since Smokey has no means of communicating in human terms, the only way that he can manipulate others to do his bidding is by putting himself into another person's body. Why can't he just take Christian's body, or someone else's body, and just kill Jacob himself? Because the rules also make sure that Esau/Smokey, no matter whose body he is in, cannot touch Jacob, no matter what.

Which is why John "amenable to coercion" Locke is so perfect. Give him enough grief throughout his lifetime on and off the island, limits will someday break. From finding the hatch, to blowing up the hatch, to moving the island and time skipping through space, Locke was at the limit's precipice, and his faith turned blind, assuming part 1 of the role of Esau/Smokey's loophole. My hypothesis now is that before Locke's body was free to replicate, Christian was the ideal candidate, and maybe Christian (replicated/possessed by Smokey/Esau) was originally meant to convince Jack to do his bidding ('White Rabbit' as evidence). But as Jack turned the other way and interpreted the island messages to be validations of his rationality, Christian (Esau/Smokey) turned to Locke, figuring out he was the most viable candidate.

Locke's death (not sure if Smokey/Esau planned this from the beginning, but both possibilities seem likely) gave Smokey/Esau a new game plan, and this was to exploit not just John Locke, but John Locke's relaitonship with the recently powerless Ben Linus. By exploiting Ben like how Locke was exploited in the beginning, Esau/Smokey found a full proof plan to take out jacob. Ben's inferiority as a leader was preyed on, and Locke became the new Christian (the guide) and Ben became the man amenable to coercion. Ben is the second half that completes the loophole. Ben + Locke/ Yin + Yang.

So what is the red herring? The red herring is ESAU himself. Smokey is the big bad of the show. It's not "man 2", or Esau, pulling the strings, but rather, he is a victim in a many long line of victims that was replicated/possessed by Smokey. In the grand scheme of things, the man in the black shirt was nothing more but a pawn, a lifeless body that was "eaten" by Smokey. Jacob is aware of this and knows that anyone he brings on the island can someday end up as an agent for Smokey's ultimate end game. And he plans well for this.

Jacob, under the rouse of establishing a "perfect" society, instead looks for HIS candidates to win the battle for the island-- his "ace in the hole", so to speak. So Jacob, seeing that Jack and the 815ers are unique to the island's history in that they existed both in 1977 and 2004 and time hopped through spacetime (giving Jacob knowledge that they will someday return and/or someday cause the incident) visited specific members of the camp and gave him his "touch". Jacob touched every single one of them on his visits. Why? What we know so far is that Jacob gave Locke his life back by touching him (even though we can assume he has the knowledge that this man will one day serve as the vessel that will kill him? Strange). So what did Jacob touching the rest, who were ostensibly not dead, do to them? Perhaps it gave them the ability to flash in 316? If so, why didn't Sun flash? Jacob also touched her. Right now, I am thinking Jacob's touch gave the 815ers/O6 a piece of him. Separating his consciousness/existence into his own vessels so one day, with their powers combined, the O6 can form...CAPTAIN JACOB!!! (jk, but seriously). Jacob is planning ahead. He knows that one day Smokey will find a way to take him out, and when this happens, he'll have a group of people coming at him with this ace in the hole.

"They're coming"

Hell yes, they are.

As mentioned several times here, that fish was a red snapper. Herring look entirely different.

-steve

This is exactly what I had been thinking, only alot more detailed and eloquently written!

:yes:

You may have just solved LOST my friend!!

I'm not happy with the notion of Locke being conned all this time, i believe it'd be bad writing if that occurred. Also i don't believe Esau and Smokey are one and the same. Maybe they're working together, but i don't believe they're the same entity/person.

If you go back and watch some of the previous episodes the smoke monster has been involved in, it seems very primitive, like a wild beast. I dunno, i just don't think it has this super advanced ai, i mean it got to the sonic fence and just crashed into it. It didn't even think, and thne it just retreated.

On the issue of "They're coming," I don't think it has any metaphysical overtones. I think it simply means that the guys who were standing outside the statue were coming in.

As mentioned several times here, that fish was a red snapper. Herring look entirely different.

-steve

I thought that red snappers don't actually exist? Or at least that's what I read on another thread. So I assumed the producers improvised and got a red fish. Even if it wasn't a snapper, color does mean a lot on this show (i.e. white shirt v. black shirt). If it was wholly unintentional, then my thoughts were inspired by a false presumption. Whoops!

I'm not happy with the notion of Locke being conned all this time, i believe it'd be bad writing if that occurred. Also i don't believe Esau and Smokey are one and the same. Maybe they're working together, but i don't believe they're the same entity/person.

If you go back and watch some of the previous episodes the smoke monster has been involved in, it seems very primitive, like a wild beast. I dunno, i just don't think it has this super advanced ai, i mean it got to the sonic fence and just crashed into it. It didn't even think, and thne it just retreated.

Yeah, I'm not ruling out that they're separate entities, but I'm sticking, for now, with the idea that Man 2 was no one of significance and was just another victim of Smokey. He could very well be the island's version of evil incarnate and pulls all the strings (including Smokey), but I like the idea of the writers tricking us and showing that he is just one of many in the long line of pawns.


On the issue of "They're coming," I don't think it has any metaphysical overtones. I think it simply means that the guys who were standing outside the statue were coming in.

I think our narrative vocabulary leads us to believe differently. The episode could have easily ended with the flames shrouded beneath Locke's face (boom! cut to LOST) and we could have assumed, oh yeah, the war is coming..sweet. Ilana is going to bust some ***. But right after Jacob said "they're coming", it cuts back to our 815ers. The same people that were "touched" by Jacob throughout the whole episode. Juliet launches the bomb, and that can presumably lead them back to fulfill Jacob's mission.

I'm not happy with the notion of Locke being conned all this time, i believe it'd be bad writing if that occurred.

Really? It has become quite apparent to me that every little thing we have been shown about Locke has shown how he is easily conned, "amenable to coercion", desperate to be special. Life has been so bad to him that he has an overwhelming desire to be accepted, hence joining the commune, hence why the police chose him as the best way to infiltrate the commune, hence how easily his father conned a kidney out of him, even to the point where he believed some woman on the other end of a premium rate phoneline to be his girlfriend. It has all been designed to demonstrate how easily Locke could be made to believe he is "the chosen one", a leader, and put into a position where Smokey/Esau/Man #2/Black Shirt could use him to get to Jacob, where he could make Locke his "loophole".

To the OP, great theory...I almost wish I didnt read this. Very insightful. To gupwalla...nice thoughts as well; I like how it turns out Locke didnt visit Sun or Ben. But Why Frank? What makes you think he'll be a vessel?

Because the rules also make sure that Esau/Smokey, no matter whose body he is in, cannot touch Jacob, no matter what.

"Esau" kicked Jacob into the fire.

"Esau" kicked Jacob into the fire.

Yes, but only when he was clearly dying or dead.

"Esau" kicked Jacob into the fire.

Yes, but only after Ben butchered him real good.

I like this theory for the most part, but I'm not sure about Jacob as utopian and Smokey/Esau as anti-utopian. It seems to me that the main thing we learn about Jacob in this episode is that he is all about free will. He may have an ideal in mind, but he isn't pushing it, the people have to make the choice to come to it on their own. The island, to me, is not like the Garden of Eden, but more like the Garden of Gethsemane -- it's about redemption. And we have seen several people redeemed, like Sawyer, Jin, Charlie, Eko, etc. These people all had some nasty stuff in their background, but grew into more caring, less selfish people trying to make things right.

On the other hand, Smokey/Esau and Ben are all about using people, lying and manipulating -- even coercing outright -- to achieve the end they want. In reality, that is a far more utopian characteristic, in practice, if not in principle. Letting people make their own choices is messy and risky. If you want everything to be "just so" and everyone to act "just right", you inevitably end up with tyranny. To me, that is the battle that is being set in motion here.

Incidentally, that is my guess as to why Jacob never saw Ben. I think he was waiting for Ben's redemption, but he stayed the lying, manipulating, magnificent b***ard right up to the end.

I like this theory for the most part, but I'm not sure about Jacob as utopian and Smokey/Esau as anti-utopian. It seems to me that the main thing we learn about Jacob in this episode is that he is all about free will. He may have an ideal in mind, but he isn't pushing it, the people have to make the choice to come to it on their own. The island, to me, is not like the Garden of Eden, but more like the Garden of Gethsemane -- it's about redemption. And we have seen several people redeemed, like Sawyer, Jin, Charlie, Eko, etc. These people all had some nasty stuff in their background, but grew into more caring, less selfish people trying to make things right.

On the other hand, Smokey/Esau and Ben are all about using people, lying and manipulating -- even coercing outright -- to achieve the end they want. In reality, that is a far more utopian characteristic, in practice, if not in principle. Letting people make their own choices is messy and risky. If you want everything to be "just so" and everyone to act "just right", you inevitably end up with tyranny. To me, that is the battle that is being set in motion here.

Incidentally, that is my guess as to why Jacob never saw Ben. I think he was waiting for Ben's redemption, but he stayed the lying, manipulating, magnificent b***ard right up to the end.

Cool concept indeed...Garden of Gethsemane rather than the Garden of Eden

I like this theory for the most part, but I'm not sure about Jacob as utopian and Smokey/Esau as anti-utopian. It seems to me that the main thing we learn about Jacob in this episode is that he is all about free will. He may have an ideal in mind, but he isn't pushing it, the people have to make the choice to come to it on their own. The island, to me, is not like the Garden of Eden, but more like the Garden of Gethsemane -- it's about redemption. And we have seen several people redeemed, like Sawyer, Jin, Charlie, Eko, etc. These people all had some nasty stuff in their background, but grew into more caring, less selfish people trying to make things right.

On the other hand, Smokey/Esau and Ben are all about using people, lying and manipulating -- even coercing outright -- to achieve the end they want. In reality, that is a far more utopian characteristic, in practice, if not in principle. Letting people make their own choices is messy and risky. If you want everything to be "just so" and everyone to act "just right", you inevitably end up with tyranny. To me, that is the battle that is being set in motion here.

Incidentally, that is my guess as to why Jacob never saw Ben. I think he was waiting for Ben's redemption, but he stayed the lying, manipulating, magnificent b***ard right up to the end.

Good points. From my limited understanding of the bible, Gethsemane is where Jesus went to pray before he was taken in by the Romans, yes? Excuse me if I rub some religious/spiritual sensibilities, but I was referring to Eden in a strictly mythical sense...like Middle Earth. Whereas I see Gethsemane, which is place that exists in the real world (I think), as a place of symbolism; a synecdoche sort of.

In any case, I'm more attracted to the idea that Jacob's original intention was to create paradise, but slowly transitioned into believing that the place was best served for its redemptive qualities. Seeing the folly and detriments of man, he put stock in the idea that man can change, whereas Smokey/Esau does not.

Then again, perhaps neither Jacob or Esau have no intentions of improving the morale of man by bringing them there. We'll see. What we do know is that both sides are using or exploiting (whichever way you look at it) the people who come to the island to reach their ends.

I like this theory for the most part, but I'm not sure about Jacob as utopian and Smokey/Esau as anti-utopian. It seems to me that the main thing we learn about Jacob in this episode is that he is all about free will.
Actually, I was starting to think the exact opposite.

He was shown in multiple character's pasts, manipulating them into coming to the island. Now, whether or not they had a choice is up for debate. The concept of WHH basically means that there is no free will; everyone is traveling down one linear, inevitable path. Jacob's influence in the past had an arguably profound effect on everyone's destiny. As others have said, had Jacob not interfered with Kate getting in trouble with the police, she might have taken a completely different road in life and never have grown to become such an outlaw. As such, I got the impression Jacob was the one counting on circumstance to drive everything in a way he deemed favorable. I never saw uncertainty or hope in his eyes, he seemed very sure of himself.

It would appear the monster has an different disposition. He gave Eko a choice to repent or not to repent, and Eko chose the latter. It would appear the monster believes in free will, because he gave Eko a choice, and never threatened Eko with death, only killed Eko after Eko had made his choice. It is somewhat ironic, though, that Eko's free will would lead to his own death. Ben is in a similar position, where he can either conform or perish.

Thinking about it and what I know of the biblical Jacob/Esau story, there are some similarities. Esau sold his birthright for food. Supposedly he was blind and on the brink of death from hunger. Did he have to sell his birthright? No, but the alternative was his own death, so one has to wonder how much free will is involved there, the human mind being self-preserving and all that.

It may be that the monster doesn't even perceive the irony in the choice he gives to others.

I'm not happy with the notion of Locke being conned all this time, i believe it'd be bad writing if that occurred.

Are you kidding me? Locke has been conned his whole life.

Actually, I was starting to think the exact opposite.

He was shown in multiple character's pasts, manipulating them into coming to the island. Now, whether or not they had a choice is up for debate. The concept of WHH basically means that there is no free will; everyone is traveling down one linear, inevitable path. Jacob's influence in the past had an arguably profound effect on everyone's destiny. As others have said, had Jacob not interfered with Kate getting in trouble with the police, she might have taken a completely different road in life and never have grown to become such an outlaw. As such, I got the impression Jacob was the one counting on circumstance to drive everything in a way he deemed favorable. I never saw uncertainty or hope in his eyes, he seemed very sure of himself.

It would appear the monster has an different disposition. He gave Eko a choice to repent or not to repent, and Eko chose the latter. It would appear the monster believes in free will, because he gave Eko a choice, and never threatened Eko with death, only killed Eko after Eko had made his choice. It is somewhat ironic, though, that Eko's free will would lead to his own death. Ben is in a similar position, where he can either conform or perish.

Thinking about it and what I know of the biblical Jacob/Esau story, there are some similarities. Esau sold his birthright for food. Supposedly he was blind and on the brink of death from hunger. Did he have to sell his birthright? No, but the alternative was his own death, so one has to wonder how much free will is involved there, the human mind being self-preserving and all that.

It may be that the monster doesn't even perceive the irony in the choice he gives to others.

It's interesting to see that the dichotomy of free will v. determinism has traditionally been symbolized between the struggle of Locke v. Jack, but I think we can conclude now that both these characters are mere pawns in the real battle between Jacob and Esau.

I think something that we have all forgotten is another loophole and that is Desmond Hume. We know that he's "unique" and we still do not know whether or not his actions change the future/past, or are just part of the whole spectrum of already determined events. Remember, Desmond was named after Scottish philosopher David Hume, and Hume, among other things, was famous for what he called "compatibalism", or the idea that FREE WILL and DETERMINISM can exist within each other.

One flaw I see to the Smokey/Esau being one and the same -- The cabin.

It would seem to me that Ben was being manipulated (as was Locke) by Esau. We know that Ben could not see Jacob and Locke did not know what he was looking at. Who was trapped in the cabin? It would appear to be Esau. And, by the look of the ash, he has escaped. Who let him out? Ben and Locke.

So if Esau was trapped in the cabin, how was he able to be Smokey?

I think that it's one or the other: Darkman, as I choose to call him, was either the one in the cabin and most likely trapped there until Hurley moved the cabin (outside the volcanic ash circle), or he was Smokie.

I'm also not 100% sure that Darkman is bad, though most likely he is. It is possible that he simply hated Jacob for constantly bringing people to the Island to become his own personal theatre.

Great Theory I mentioned in another post that I thought man in black/esau was infact smokey. It now makes perfect sense. Also- I think that Jacob burned his body if not all bodies smokey inhabited and sprinked the ash's round the cabin which is why after having had Jacob stabbed twice in the chest he was then kicked into fire to burn. See I'm thinking that Jacob's something else not a man and just inhabits the body we see him in. Perhaps he is the spirit of Sobek or whatever the statue is and just lives in the body of Jacob.