I don't know if this has been discussed, but was anyone else wondering what would have happened if Sayid wasn't treated how he was when he came back to life?

Dogen says how there's a darkness in Sayid, but really Sayid seemed OK until he was slowly pushed by Dogen into a position where it made complete sense for Sayid to get revenge. The chain of events started when Sayid was "tested" and it was downhill from there. Dogen's repeated dishonest especially was a catalyst for Sayid's revenge. In the end he basically sent Sayid into MIB's loving arms.

I'm wondering if this has greater significance to the whole concept of light vs dark. In this case the growing darkness was of a circular nature, it grew because Dogen kept trying to quash it. Who knows how Sayid would have turned out if he wasn't mistreated?

Sayid seemed fine until sundown.

I kinda think the whole "claimed" thing is a crock. Claire is behaving exactly as I think someone would for living completely alone for three years having lost a son and with no survival training. Likewise, Sayid has been manipulated by MiB, not "claimed." And as the TC said, the guys he killed put him through electric torture and tried to kill him twice.

Maybe Dogen wanted to die but couldn't kill himself.

Maybe Dogen wanted to die but couldn't kill himself.:eek2:

Rodimus makes an excellent point, and MIB only pointed out the obvious, they did try to kill him twice, I'm afraid of MIB and his minions they are creepy and sinister. I once theorized that Jacobs followers were evil, they kill without question, but apparently so does the MIB crew. I don't know who to trust, wait you can always count on Hurley:biggrin:

I don't know if this has been discussed, but was anyone else wondering what would have happened if Sayid wasn't treated how he was when he came back to life?

Dogen says how there's a darkness in Sayid, but really Sayid seemed OK until he was slowly pushed by Dogen into a position where it made complete sense for Sayid to get revenge. The chain of events started when Sayid was "tested" and it was downhill from there. Dogen's repeated dishonest especially was a catalyst for Sayid's revenge. In the end he basically sent Sayid into MIB's loving arms.

I'm wondering if this has greater significance to the whole concept of light vs dark. In this case the growing darkness was of a circular nature, it grew because Dogen kept trying to quash it. Who knows how Sayid would have turned out if he wasn't mistreated?

I agree with this. I think maybe Drogen had some foreknowledge that Sayid was going to kill him (maybe something in Jacob's note tipped Drogen off?); in response, Drogen tried to kill Sayid first. This created a self-fulfilling loop. I mean, if Drogen hadn't told Sayid to go try and kill Smokey or be killed in return for being evil, Sayid would never have bumped into Locke before sundown, would never have been in a position to be tempted, and would have had no final incentive to kill Drogen.

As for the "evil" detected in Sayid, I feel like that whole concept, as presented to us, has been a way too thin. You would think, if the test was a legitimate determination of good and evil in a person, the audience would get some kind of clue as to what was happening. But ANYONE would scream at being shocked and branded; if that is the only indication of inner evil, we're all damned.

The test seems like it should actually be one to determine if a person is really Smokey in disguise.


Lay the suspect on the table, and cover them with a fine layer of ash - Smokey can't cross the ash, and can't (that we've seen) phase through solid objects. So a fine layer of ash coating his form would pin Smokey in place.
Shock the suspect - As the sonic fence around Otherton hints, Smokey is harmed by certain types of disturbances. While he appears stable in human form, it seems like a good soundwave at the right frequency, or an electric shot, might shake him out of his disguise. So, you send an electric shock through the suspect, to see if he or she transforms.
Brand the suspect - once it is established the person is not Smokey, give them a distinctive mark, one which the impostor either won't have or won't be able to duplicate. I'm not sure if the Temple folk know of Smokey's ability to read the memories of the forms he adapts, so it would make sense that they would think the mark would be a conclusive way to distinguish between a real person and an impostor.

Perhaps the Temple dwellers used this test for so long, they forgot its real purpose. The test has become a perverted witch trial (something which the dunking until death hints at); there is no longer a way for a suspect to pass.

Lay the suspect on the table, and cover them with a fine layer of ash - Smokey can't cross the ash, and can't (that we've seen) phase through solid objects. So a fine layer of ash coating his form would pin Smokey in place.
Shock the suspect - As the sonic fence around Otherton hints, Smokey is harmed by certain types of disturbances. While he appears stable in human form, it seems like a good soundwave at the right frequency, or an electric shot, might shake him out of his disguise. So, you send an electric shock through the suspect, to see if he or she transforms.
Brand the suspect - once it is established the person is not Smokey, give them a distinctive mark, one which the impostor either won't have or won't be able to duplicate. I'm not sure if the Temple folk know of Smokey's ability to read the memories of the forms he adapts, so it would make sense that they would think the mark would be a conclusive way to distinguish between a real person and an impostor.

Perhaps the Temple dwellers used this test for so long, they forgot its real purpose. The test has become a perverted witch trial (something which the dunking until death hints at); there is no longer a way for a suspect to pass.

I like your theory on the test. My only question is -- how did Sayid fail? What was the indication of failure? Even if the Temple dwellers forgot its real purpose, what is "failing"?

I like your theory on the test. My only question is -- how did Sayid fail? What was the indication of failure? Even if the Temple dwellers forgot its real purpose, what is "failing"?
I've been plagued by this as well, how did he fail, he reacted like anyone else would have, was he not supposed to scream when they burned him? Was he supposed to scream when the put the dust on him? was he supposed to scream all the secrets of the Island when the shocked him? I mean how exactly did he fail, sadly this will probably not get answered.

I don't know if this has been discussed, but was anyone else wondering what would have happened if Sayid wasn't treated how he was when he came back to life?

I've wondered what would have happened had Sayid not been shot. It's the only reason they were sent to the temple in the first place. I guess Ilana would have rounded them up and asked them stuff in Latin.

I like your theory on the test. My only question is -- how did Sayid fail? What was the indication of failure? Even if the Temple dwellers forgot its real purpose, what is "failing"?

We have no idea what indicates failure. I don't think the Temple people know anymore.

We have no idea what indicates failure. I don't think the Temple people know anymore.

There I disagree with you. The writers, IMO, would not let that happen. There is some sort of "science" to this world and Dogen knew specifically what he was looking for.

Doc Jensen (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20349492,00.html) makes some nice parallels between Dogen and Jesus in Gethsemane.

Who was it in Judas' position in the Lost Supper pic?

We have no idea what indicates failure.

gaping plot holes = failure