That was my immediate thought when Sawyer 'won' the red fish biscuit - that all the psychological tests were just a red herring. Or am I just being over analytical??

Interesting idea. I just took it to be humor. So, if it is a real red herring and not just a joke on Sawyer, why are these people being held? What purpose is the fish scent masking?

sorry if I'm slow but, what do you mean?

sorry if I'm slow but, what do you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring


Interesting idea. You know, I kept thinking that he was doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.:rolleyes: What finally he got was a different result. He got a shock. So was the real point of the excercise not the prize, but the change in thinking? Trying something different? Breaking old patterns of behavior?

Interesting idea. You know, I kept thinking that he was doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.:rolleyes: What finally he got was a different result. He got a shock. So was the real point of the excercise not the prize, but the change in thinking? Trying something different? Breaking old patterns of behavior?

Well that's what I had thought. Though that thought really disturbs me in terms of what exactly the Others are doing. :/

Yes. I'm not sure I see the point in these behavioral studies, because they've all been done before. There's nothing new that can come from these experiments, but they might be studying something else, and doing this stuff so that if Jack, Sawyer and Kate do finally get to go back with the other passengers, they wont know the true nature of what the Others are up to.

im just wondering if the Others even knew of the hatch, and if so why werent THEY in the hatch, and if not, then who was supposed to have been watching Des from the Pearl station cameras? if it wasnt one of the Others, is there another group we havent found yet? i mean someone had to be observing all this to be able to analyze it.
and im still a bit confuzzed about how they could see the plane go down, watch the survivors, but completely miss Desmonds sailboat on their recon?

That was my immediate thought when Sawyer 'won' the red fish biscuit - that all the psychological tests were just a red herring. Or am I just being over analytical??
Great observation - I love it moonlight princess.
I kept thinking that he was doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.:rolleyes: What finally he got was a different result. He got a shock. So was the real point of the excercise not the prize, but the change in thinking? Trying something different? Breaking old patterns of behavior? Yes, it looks that way. They've turned Sawyer into a trained monkey or polar bear. And Jack got denial of information until he asked the "right" questions (about himself and not his current situation)

sorry if I'm slow but, what do you mean?
It's a fox hunting term. If you drag a red herring across the fox's trail, the fish scent overwhelms the fox scent. The hounds lose the fox's scent and can't follow its trail any more.
Yes. I'm not sure I see the point in these behavioral studies, because they've all been done before. There's nothing new that can come from these experiments, but they might be studying something else, and doing this stuff so that if Jack, Sawyer and Kate do finally get to go back with the other passengers, they wont know the true nature of what the Others are up to.
So the experiments are masking the true purpose. HockeyFan, I think you're on to something.

So the experiments are masking the true purpose. HockeyFan, I think you're on to something.

I agree. Right now, I believe the Others are going to try to change the thought processes and characteristics of J/K/S to what they deem good. Eventually breaking their wills altogether.

I don't think it was any kind of test for Sawyer. He is being held in the polar bear cage.

With all the carefully crafted psychology and mythology woven into this series I'd find it disappointing if the cage and the experiment were nothing but a joke. I think they're integral to the whole epic.

I don't think it was any kind of test for Sawyer. He is being held in the polar bear cage.

I tend to agree that the cages are being used mainly because they are there. Same with the aquarium hatch, because its there and functions as a good place of isolation for Jack.

On another note, how DID the polar bears get out? Were they let out on purpose?

Also, anyone else make the connection between sharks being studied and the shark that attacked Sawyer and Michael on the raft? I think it, like the polar bears, was an escaped test subject.

Well, it was kind of redish in color, and it was a fish biscuit = Red Herring

;)

PERHAPS THE "RED HERRING" IS FOR THE FANS NOT SAWYER.:biggrin:

I don't think it was any kind of test for Sawyer. He is being held in the polar bear cage.

Exactly, they are not testing Sawyer. They need a secure place to put him, and they have a cage that happens to have been used as a test for bears in the past. Sawyer just couldn't sit there, so he worked out the system.
100%
It's a fox hunting term. If you drag a red herring across the fox's trail, the fish scent overwhelms the fox scent. The hounds lose the fox's scent and can't follow its trail any more.


I don't think that Shanzy was asking what a red herring was. He/she just didn't get what the OP meant.

Exactly, they are not testing Sawyer. They need a secure place to put him, and they have a cage that happens to have been used as a test for bears in the past. Sawyer just couldn't sit there, so he worked out the system.
100%


I don't think that Shanzy was asking what a red herring was. He/she just didn't get what the OP meant.

I think what is more important in this situation is that they chose not to give Sawyer food or water. He was left to his own devices to find food and water for himself. After the emphasis on food in Jack's and Kate's stories, isn't that kind of odd? Juliet was insisting that if Jack didn't eat and drink he would become dehydrated. Nothing like that was ever said to Sawyer. It seems to me he was meant to work on the bears' puzzle in order to feed himself. So, was that just plain meanness or was it something else?

I think what is more important in this situation is that they chose not to give Sawyer food or water. He was left to his own devices to find food and water for himself. After the emphasis on food in Jack's and Kate's stories, isn't that kind of odd? Juliet was insisting that if Jack didn't eat and drink he would become dehydrated. Nothing like that was ever said to Sawyer. It seems to me he was meant to work on the bears' puzzle in order to feed himself. So, was that just plain meanness or was it something else?

I saw different tyes of behavioral conditioning. Sawyer was negative reinforcement. Shock therapy while trying to figure out the "right" way to feed himself, and during his potentially staged escape attempt. Jack got positive reinforcement. Better food, an indoor cell, and treated as a human - if a contained one - as long as he cooperates with the Others. Kate was sort of the middle ground. Good food and water and no physical shocks, but a also a skimpy dress and an outdoor cell exposed to the elements. The question is, what are they being conditioned for, and why will it make a difference how they came to be changed?

I also wonder if the Others are trying to test how the drug they were injected with reacts in different subjects under different levels of stress

I also wonder if the Others are trying to test how the drug they were injected with reacts in different subjects under different levels of stress

I dont really think it is a matter of the drug, I personally think the drug was just to have them incapacitated briefly so they could be caged.

I do see the significance in how they decided not to give any food or water to Sawyer though. I think that reason will be shown in the near future episodes.

I think what is more important in this situation is that they chose not to give Sawyer food or water. He was left to his own devices to find food and water for himself. After the emphasis on food in Jack's and Kate's stories, isn't that kind of odd? Juliet was insisting that if Jack didn't eat and drink he would become dehydrated. Nothing like that was ever said to Sawyer. It seems to me he was meant to work on the bears' puzzle in order to feed himself. So, was that just plain meanness or was it something else?

That is a super interesting point! From day one Sawyer has gotten his supplies by plundering the wreckage. Granted he was chopping wood... but whatever. Jack however spent the first few days meeting the immediate needs of the other survivors... mainly b/c he's a doctor... and now we learn... obsessive. Velly intelestink.

I think what is more important in this situation is that they chose not to give Sawyer food or water. He was left to his own devices to find food and water for himself. After the emphasis on food in Jack's and Kate's stories, isn't that kind of odd? Juliet was insisting that if Jack didn't eat and drink he would become dehydrated. Nothing like that was ever said to Sawyer. It seems to me he was meant to work on the bears' puzzle in order to feed himself. So, was that just plain meanness or was it something else?

What I took from the different treatment each of the three got, was that the Others do, in fact know a lot about not only Jack, but all of them.

They know just how to approach each of them to get the response they want. It takes a lot of observation (or knowledge) of a person to know how to most effectively break (or at least disorient) them.

Jack needed to be in complete isolation, then approached softly, by a woman who got personal.

Kate was put in a dainty dress and strappy sandals ... dressed up like a lady ... then with the exception of the handcuffs, treated like a lady rather than the tomboy personna she has been displaying. She is told the next two weeks will be bad, then she is tossed into a cage across from Sawyer (who Ben assumes is the object of her desire and who immediately goes all mushy and gives her the food he worked so hard for)

If they've been watching, they know Sawyer won't cave in quickly to torture ... that he thinks he's clever and that he is protective of Kate. So they put him in a puzzle box to occupy his mind and build up his feeling of cleverness ... only to bring him crashing down with the easy capture by a single woman ... and then further weaken him with the sight of daintily dressed Kate looking more vulnerable than he is accustomed to seeing her.

The Others are nothing, if not well informed.

I have to agree with Sheba. All three Losties were put into a situation that best suited their personalities. The Others obviously have enough information on them (either through observation, outside sources ie. background files, or both) to know the best way to 'break' their prisoners. I think the inclusion of the 'red herring' that Sawyer recieved as his reward is a nod to the fans from TPTB, not so much an important clue in and of itself. Only time will tell....

one thing about the whole Kate-Sawyer escape attempt kinda bugs me. i know i've seen plenty of flashbacks where Kate at least TRIES to kick ***, but when Sawyer n her were cornered, she just wimped out, when she couldve easliy taken that weapon away from her captor, at least thats what im thinkin.

It wouldve been cool to see just how well Sawyer handled an AK-47 semi-auto, though. i mean you can rip through a clip of ammo in less than 10 seconds, given you have to sense not to shoot your co-captive LOL.