I find this intriguing. Noticeably absent from Othersville are two things I fully expected to see: clocks/watches and children. In Juliet's home there is not one visible clock (possibly on stereo, but never shown). She didn't even use a timer to bake her muffins. The sound we heard was a smoke alarm. Not one of the book clubbers has a watch, nor any of the group that gathers outside. Not Zeke, nor his henchmen are wearing a timepiece. Many of the losties have watches, but no "other." There are no clocks in any of the hatches, either (working from memory on this). The closest we get to a clock is the countdown timer.

If this group of others took the children, where are they? They didn't come outside when everyone else did. There is not even a play area outside, as one would expect. There is a gazebo. Not much fun for a kid. This is adultland. Thoughts?

Which begs the question - how do they know when it's time for the book club? Maybe they just don't stray much from the area, so someone just yells out that it's time?

Michael did say that "time has no meaning on a damn island," and therefore Jin's watch was worthless, but their circumstances were different. The Others seem pretty organized, which makes the lack of time keeping odd.

They didn't take the children until AFTER the plane crashed, which was after they were all outside.

^ Exactly. We don't know if there are any other children or not. The only one we know of (besides the ones from the tail section) is Alex who isn't really a child anymore.

They didn't take the children until AFTER the plane crashed, which was after they were all outside.

Of course they hadn't taken the children yet, but why don't they have their own? It certainly looks like a normal, functioning (and continuing) community. Normally that includes children.

Of course they hadn't taken the children yet, but why don't they have their own? It certainly looks like a normal, functioning (and continuing) community. Normally that includes children.


That might be part of why they took the children.

That might be part of why they took the children.

Yep, I hold the view that they are sterile, perhaps as the results of experiments ? Maybe they dont age either.

That might be part of why they took the children.

Exactly.

This is my new favorite thread. Observations like this are the kind that I love. It may mean absolutely nothing that there were no time-keeping devices shown, but the fact that they were totally absent is intriguing. It could just be a strange coincidence... perhaps none of the actors wore watches that day, and maybe they just didn't have any clock props... but maybe it was intentional!

And the lack of children helps provide insight as to why they would be interested in them. For some reason, perhaps they can't have children... or maybe they don't like them. Or perhaps they use them for something we don't know about yet, and are always looking for more 'subjects'.

Awesome observations. Like I said, my new favorite thread. FINALLY a reason to go back and rewatch this episode. Time to look for more things we DON'T see at Otherville.
100%
Yep, I hold the view that they are sterile, perhaps as the results of experiments ? Maybe they dont age either.

This has me intrigued. I've considered it before, but always dismissed the 'no aging' thing... but perhaps there is more to it.

If you didn't age, and you were hundreds of years old, would 'time' really matter to you? Would you really bother to wear a watch? Maybe not.

Perhaps, much like in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, there is a boundry and a price to the immortality the others have found on the island (the Grail Knight says: "...beware: the Grail cannot pass beyond the Great Seal, for that is the boundry, and the price, of immortality"). Perhaps that is what Juliet is struggling with - the price and boundary of her immortality - perhaps she had friends and family off the island that she has long outlived (a touch of Tuck Everlasting, if you will). Perhaps she laments the fact that should she ever leave the island, she would die, and she will never again go "Downtown".

Consider: We know the island has mystical healing properties (Rose's cancer cure, Locke's ability to walk, perhaps more, as yet to be revealed). It has limitations, of course (Boone's death, the Marshall's death, Shannon's death, etc., etc.), but it seems to me that those deaths were all the result of massive physical trauma.. Locke's paralysis and Rose's cancer aren't so much 'injuries' as the others...

Now... if you were sitting on the secret of eternal life (provided you don't go falling off a cliff or stabbing yourself or something like that), you'd probably want to protect that, so that gives motivation to the Others to protect their secret.

Perhaps somewhere in all of that is also a motivation to take children - perhaps they somehow (and this is going to sound totally bizarre and absurd) 'suck the youth' out of the children, I don't know, and distribute it around to everyone. Silly, but maybe. Or maybe they use the children for something else, I don't know.

Perhaps the 'vaccine' is really a 'vaccine' against the anti-aging properties of the island. Perhaps that's why they took the children, so that they could inject them with the vaccine, so that they wouldn't perpetually be children. Maybe it's a good thing Claire gave the vaccine to Aaron, as otherwise he would have stayed an infant forever. I don't know. I'm thinking out loud here.

Now... if you were sitting on the secret of eternal life (provided you don't go falling off a cliff or stabbing yourself or something like that), you'd probably want to protect that, so that gives motivation to the Others to protect their secret.



I agree. In addition, do you think that might be why they are so concerned with "good" people? I mean who would want to spend an eternity with "bad" people? And the situations we are finding Jack, Kate, and Sawyer in may be conditioning to make them "good". Because, honestly, these three are among the more attractive and powerful members of the Losties. Why not start the reconditioning with them?

I agree. In addition, do you think that might be why they are so concerned with "good" people? I mean who would want to spend an eternity with "bad" people? And the situations we are finding Jack, Kate, and Sawyer in may be conditioning to make them "good". Because, honestly, these three are among the more attractive and powerful members of the Losties. Why not start the reconditioning with them?

I agree, I meant to mention that in my previous post, too. The "good" people are the ones with whom they could share their secret and their eternity with.

Perhaps that's what...Ben 'offers' Jack in the upcoming episode - immortality... although probably not, because that would be a MASSIVE revalation for just a regular episode... and probably not something that would be revealed for a long while, if true.

You'd think there'd be lots of children. If this is a religious cult like some are theorizing, then multiplying would be high priority. Of course not a lot of attractive options there in Othersville, except for maybe Goodwin.

Here are some of my thoughts relevent to the ideas of this thread:

1) The NO kids/sterility theory is interesting in that Sun was sterile but was mysteriously healed by the island and now preganant

2) Karl looked like he could be a teen or just out of his teens

3) If the Others are really desperate for children why didn't they come back and take Aaron at the end of S1?

4) The lack of clockes and watches is a pretty good indicator that time is irrlevent, which supports the theory that the island is shrouded by a heavy EM field

Here are some of my thoughts relevent to the ideas of this thread:

1) The NO kids/sterility theory is interesting in that Sun was sterile but was mysteriously healed by the island and now preganant Wasn't it Jin who was sterile? Also, we're still not sure the kid is his... although I assume it is.

Now that I think about it, the only time keeping device was the timer. Even in the hatch, there was no clock (at least none that I could remember).

No watch ... no time ... no problems.

Come to think about it, does any of our castaways have a watch?

That might be part of why they took the children.

I think they took the kids for the same reason they took the good people -they were there. The kids were innocent and therefore good. I don't think they want kids for an nefarious reason. The kids needed a home and the community had homes for them. It would have been dumb to leave them to suffer on the beach. I imagine they had quite a few people who wanted to give newborn Alex a home. Note the Others kept the name her mother had given her out of what I would like to think was respect for Rousseau.

I think they took Alex because they felt her mother was crazy and would kill her. And the first time Alex picked up any little bug her mother would have killed her. Anyone who got the sniffles on Rousseau’s team was toast.

Come to think about it, does any of our castaways have a watch?

Didn't Jin have a watch that Sawyer found? The watch his father in law gave him. My memory could be off though.

I also noticed there were no clocks. I even screencapped the stove because I thought it might have a clock. There might be a digital clock on the stove (rectangular in the center) but I zoomed in and there's no numbers. (On a side note, no wonder Juliet burned the muffins...it looks like the stove is set on broil.):biggrin:

Once I noticed there were no clocks, I looked for photos to show an indication of time passing....none to be found at Juliet's place.

I think they took the kids for the same reason they took the good people -they were there. The kids were innocent and therefore good. I don't think they want kids for an nefarious reason. The kids needed a home and the community had homes for them. It would have been dumb to leave them to suffer on the beach. I imagine they had quite a few people who wanted to give newborn Alex a home. Note the Others kept the name her mother had given her out of what I would like to think was respect for Rousseau.

I think they took Alex because they felt her mother was crazy and would kill her. And the first time Alex picked up any little bug her mother would have killed her. Anyone who got the sniffles on Rousseau’s team was toast. I think you're giving the Others too much benefit of the doubt, here. Don't forget that Walt was in their captivity for a while, and he urged his father to not trust them. That's not something someone says who is simply being given a 'home'.

You don't go kidnapping a kid out of the kindness of your heart. If you're that concerned about them and you're truly a nice person, you approach them in a civilized manner and make a proposal. Give them a choice in the matter.

Come to think about it, does any of our castaways have a watch?

Didn't Jin have a watch that Sawyer found? The watch his father in law gave him. My memory could be off though.

Jin was carrying a watch for Paik that Michael found and wore; they fought over it, then Jin gifted Michael with it on the raft.
Jack was wearing a watch that he gave to Hurley to time Claire's contractions. I don't recall if Jack wore it again or not.
Sun, Sayid, Charlie, Locke, and Rose have all worn watches on the island.

That's just off the top of my head. Other Losties could have worn them also.
Time and watches seemed to pop up often in S1.

What do you mean we didn't see any children? What do you think those soylent muffins were made out of? ;)

They aren't just the "good" people, they are also the leaders, who have influence over the rest of the "losties". converting the entire group would be difficult if they didn't convert the leaders first. The others know they can't get the trust of everyone, but they might be able to brain wash a few who already have the trust of the survivors.

What do you mean we didn't see any children? What do you think those soylent muffins were made out of? ;)


LOL! Soylent green!



Maybe time stands still on the Island. Im wondering if they were to get off the Island if there would be no time lapse in the real world.

^If that were so, then how did Alex age? Was it because of the "vaccine?" Or would she become a baby again? Actually wouldn't Danielle become pregnant again since she was pregnant when she arrived on the island?

Time has always been an aspect they haven't really addressed or brought attention to. I do think something is unusual with time there, and it may be brought up later. For now, little subtle hints are in there (like no clocks). They have to keep these things in there for posterity reasons (so when we fans rerun episodes and notice these little things), but they may not want to reveal that now.

I have always had that as a theory, that is, time is altered/stretched/doesn't exist. Just Juliet's comment about it being a "long time ago" involving the Dharma hatches when she is talking to Jack raises my eyebrow, just as a thought. Just a small theory in the back of my head. But we do know that people age (Claire did have her baby, Alex is now a young adult) so Im not entirely sure how this issue may play itself out in future episodes.

Or, time is the same and we are barking up the wrong tree. Ah the show that is Lost.

I do think something is unusual with time there


I don't. You could argue that the high magnetic field prevents clocks from staying accurate, but there is something else to consider. Let's say you live in a totally isolated little village on an island in the middle of nowhere. You almost never get visitors and there is very little communication with the outside world. What precisely would you need a clock for?

I don't. You could argue that the high magnetic field prevents clocks from staying accurate, but there is something else to consider. Let's say you live in a totally isolated little village on an island in the middle of nowhere. You almost never get visitors and there is very little communication with the outside world. What precisely would you need a clock for?
Not burning your muffins? :D

Um, im going to go out on a limb here and guess that maybe the kids are at school?
maybe that was a field trip we saw the barefoot kids going on in season 2. you know,
learn to walk quiet 101. just a guess.

I think time plays a big part in LOST. Along with what everyone said and I think one of the writers said that the scene away from the Island is not all it seems in the sense of time (not his exact words).

Moreover, we have watches that play a big part of Season 1 (Jin delievering the watch) and the fact tha Michael before he goes to get Walt is staring at his watch and Locke says "Do you have to be someone" and Mike says "No, just old habits I guess." But he was needing to go get Walt.

There may be some other places where time is a factor or a watch comes into play that I can't remember off hand.

"Run and you can make that shoreline in an hour"
"Only took the bears 2 hours"
"I want lists in 3 days"
"The next 2 weeks are going to be very unpleasant."
(To Michael) "You have 3 minutes"

Whether they have clocks and whether these units are the equivalent of the outside world may be fodder for discussion, but time is observed and measured in Otherville.

"Run and you can make that shoreline in an hour"
"Only took the bears 2 hours"
"I want lists in 3 days"
"The next 2 weeks are going to be very unpleasant."
(To Michael) "You have 3 minutes"

Whether they have clocks and whether these units are the equivalent of the outside world may be fodder for discussion, but time is observed and measured in Otherville.

Call me crazy and obsessive, but I timed that 3 minutes last season, and Michael got nothing close to 3 minutes with Walt. I know this was mentioned in another thread, and I'd really like to give credit to the person who noticed, but I can't remember who it was, but Julie Adams' character's name was Amelia. Now, Julie Adams is kind of a big star. She's been in the business for a very long time. I believe she's about 80 years old. I know I've seen her in a lot of things over the years, just not recently. Anyway, my point is that it was interesting that they would hire such an established actress for such a tiny role.
Someone speculated in that thread that perhaps she is supposed to be Amelia Earhart. Very cool imho. Of course Amelia Earhart would be well over 100 years old, unless she was on an island where time didn't matter for more than one reason.;) It would also cast what Danielle said in Solitary in a little different light. When Sayid informed her that her radio broadcast had been transmitting for 16 years, her response was "has it really been that long." Some very interesting questions being raised in this thread. Good thread.:)

ETA: It was seaquelost who intially posted the theory that Amelia might be Amelia Earhart.

Time is happening as day turns to night, night turns to day etc.

I think maybe there are no longer clocks and watches shown because we the veiwers scrutinize everything so tightly TPBL felt it is easier to simply eliminate any signs of time rather worry about the continuity of every scene's time pieces.

Call me crazy and obsessive, but I timed that 3 minutes last season, and Michael got nothing close to 3 minutes with Walt. I know this was mentioned in another thread, and I'd really like to give credit to the person who noticed, but I can't remember who it was, but Julie Adams' character's name was Amelia. Now, Julie Adams is kind of a big star. She's been in the business for a very long time. I believe she's about 80 years old. I know I've seen her in a lot of things over the years, just not recently. Anyway, my point is that it was interesting that they would hire such an established actress for such a tiny role.
Someone speculated in that thread that perhaps she is supposed to be Amelia Earhart. Very cool imho. Of course Amelia Earhart would be well over 100 years old, unless she was on an island where time didn't matter for more than one reason.;) It would also cast what Danielle said in Solitary in a little different light. When Sayid informed her that her radio broadcast had been transmitting for 16 years, her response was "has it really been that long." Some very interesting questions being raised in this thread. Good thread.:)

ETA: It was seaquelost who intially posted the theory that Amelia might be Amelia Earhart.

WOW... Amelia Earhart? That's awesome..... something about that just seems really cool. Time for sure plays a huge part -- whether by the fact that it's progressing way faster or that it's slowing on the island. Who knows -- but I do think they'll expand on this a little in the coming season.

Which begs the question - how do they know when it's time for the book club? Maybe they just don't stray much from the area, so someone just yells out that it's time?

Michael did say that "time has no meaning on a damn island," and therefore Jin's watch was worthless, but their circumstances were different. The Others seem pretty organized, which makes the lack of time keeping odd.

Although i do think there is something to there being no clocks or watchings in the others community, you do not need a watch or clock to know what time it is.

Maybe they tell time the old fashion way.

Every once in a while the writer's will throw in something for symbolism's sake not intended to be a hint. I don't know for sure, but my best guess is that the absence of clocks here is just a reinforcement and a reminder of what Michael said in S1- "Time doesn't matter on a damn island!"

I find this intriguing. Noticeably absent from Othersville are two things I fully expected to see: clocks/watches and children. In Juliet's home there is not one visible clock (possibly on stereo, but never shown). She didn't even use a timer to bake her muffins. The sound we heard was a smoke alarm. Not one of the book clubbers has a watch, nor any of the group that gathers outside. Not Zeke, nor his henchmen are wearing a timepiece. Many of the losties have watches, but no "other." There are no clocks in any of the hatches, either (working from memory on this). The closest we get to a clock is the countdown timer.

If this group of others took the children, where are they? They didn't come outside when everyone else did. There is not even a play area outside, as one would expect. There is a gazebo. Not much fun for a kid. This is adultland. Thoughts?

I know this great discussion has gotten into the "time" element, and I believe it is a big factor in this story. But getting back to the initial "What we don't see," I have noticed lots of things out of the ordinary for a community and some of it ties in with the "time" discussion.

Firstly, what I noticed (and I may have missed some) "what we don't see," that you would see in an "ordinary" community other than the children & clocks and watches already mentioned, we see ... no garages, no driveways, no modes of transportation, i.e. cars, bikes, motorcycles, trucks, or roads for that matter. The only mode of transport we've seen the Others have had is the boat they "gave" to Michael. We see no mailboxes, no visible TVs, radios, computers that bring in the "outside" world. It's like they have nowhere to go but stay in their little corner of the world ... until the plane crashes and they trek through the jungle to grab the survivors they want. And for what?

Also Juliet's house looked very behind the "times," nothing modern that catches your eye, except a CD player and tons of CDs! I'm sure I may have missed some things, but even though we know this is not an "ordinary" community ... this is weird! I'm not even sure what the point is that I'm trying to make. I just thought we don't see a lot in this community except people existing as they did when there was a new frontier to be explored and "civilized." And now I'm wondering how "behind the times" are they? How long have they been there? Why are they still there? And yet they get supplies...from where?

Like I said, not sure the point I'm trying to make ... just wondering ... any thoughts?

does the computer in the pearl hatch count? since the papers it printed out did show the time in which the numbers were put in, as well as the date.

Firstly, what I noticed (and I may have missed some) "what we don't see," that you would see in an "ordinary" community other than the children & clocks and watches already mentioned, we see ... no garages, no driveways, no modes of transportation, i.e. cars, bikes, motorcycles, trucks, or roads for that matter. The only mode of transport we've seen the Others have had is the boat they "gave" to Michael.


Well, actually, we did see a car in the background of their little town in one scene. :D Most assume this is a production error, as do I, but...

I know this great discussion has gotten into the "time" element, and I believe it is a big factor in this story. But getting back to the initial "What we don't see," I have noticed lots of things out of the ordinary for a community and some of it ties in with the "time" discussion.

Firstly, what I noticed (and I may have missed some) "what we don't see," that you would see in an "ordinary" community other than the children & clocks and watches already mentioned, we see ... no garages, no driveways, no modes of transportation, i.e. cars, bikes, motorcycles, trucks, or roads for that matter. The only mode of transport we've seen the Others have had is the boat they "gave" to Michael. We see no mailboxes, no visible TVs, radios, computers that bring in the "outside" world. It's like they have nowhere to go but stay in their little corner of the world ... until the plane crashes and they trek through the jungle to grab the survivors they want. And for what?

Also Juliet's house looked very behind the "times," nothing modern that catches your eye, except a CD player and tons of CDs! I'm sure I may have missed some things, but even though we know this is not an "ordinary" community ... this is weird! I'm not even sure what the point is that I'm trying to make. I just thought we don't see a lot in this community except people existing as they did when there was a new frontier to be explored and "civilized." And now I'm wondering how "behind the times" are they? How long have they been there? Why are they still there? And yet they get supplies...from where?

Like I said, not sure the point I'm trying to make ... just wondering ... any thoughts?

Actually, there is a thread in this forum where some eagle-eyed viewer caught a screencap of a car. It was probably just an editing mistake, but I just had to mention it. :p::biggrin:

Mwaha, beat you to the punch, shootfire. ;)

Actually, there is a thread in this forum where some eagle-eyed viewer caught a screencap of a car. It was probably just an editing mistake, but I just had to mention it. :p::biggrin:

Missed that one for sure!!! Thanks, Shootfire!

I agree it's probably an editing mistake because what roads would they use to drive it on. LOL

Thanks for pointing that out...I'll check out the screencap in the other thread. Told you I probably missed stuff :redface: ... gotta look closer before I run off at the mouth. :biggrin:

This is a neat thread.

But the one thing that sticks out is the same thing that stuck out last season in the Hatch
. . .everything is retro. Even CD players (the most modern thing I'VE seen among Others and Dharma stuff) aren't THAT recent.

I think that modern additions to what was already there ended around the late 1980s. Except for the lostaways, I haven't seen anything that couldn't have been around prior to 1990--have you? Oh, wait--someone had an I-pod, didn't they? Something found among the plane's wreckage, maybe? And The Others/Dharma folks DO get supplies. Maybe the occasional new gadget pops up. But nothing that really overturns the infrastructure of Their "society." Maybe They CHOOSE to keep it that way.

It'll be nice to get some answers. Maybe this season, maybe in season 17. :rolleyes:

But if They are still doing experiments, I guess none of them require exact timing. Certainly, the psychological mind games They are playing with our three lostaways doesn't require something happening at exactly 3:15pm, etc.!!

You can plan stuff by "sun in the sky" time. Maybe the book club meets when the sun is halfway past zenith, or something. Know what I'd like to see, in the town square (if they have one)? A sundial. That'd be kewl!

Call me crazy and obsessive, but I timed that 3 minutes last season, and Michael got nothing close to 3 minutes with Walt. .

Our "minute" is of course based upon an arbitrary agreement to use a circle as the template: 360 degrees, the sexagesimal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal) or base-60 system. 60 seconds to a minute, 60 seconds to an hour. That our system doesn't match up to the solar year doesn't faze us. We just routinely reset our calendars and instruments, and we don't mind at all that the sunrise and sunset times change daily.

We could, if we wanted, all switch to a different system to measure a minute, say - maybe - iterations (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=506). If we used iterations, nothing in the natural world would change but we'd be looking differently at time. Of course if those iterations were computer generated and something went awry (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=1093), we'd be screwed.

Or we could agree to use some shape other than a circle (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=737&pos=133) for a clock, with degrees more or less than 60 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=1344). Then our minutes would be longer or shorter. In a science fiction plot, this device could be used to create some havoc for persons relying upon traditional assumptions (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=20).

No discussion of the Others' concept of time would be complete without mentioning that the season 3 opener confirmed that Flight 815 crashed when it was light outside... which, as some on this board have calculated, would have been between 12 and 2 in the morning. Clearly, time on the island is different from time off of it.

Mwaha, beat you to the punch, shootfire. ;)


Argh!!! Foiled again! Charlie has faster fingers.;)

No discussion of the Others' concept of time would be complete without mentioning that the season 3 opener confirmed that Flight 815 crashed when it was light outside... which, as some on this board have calculated, would have been between 12 and 2 in the morning. Clearly, time on the island is different from time off of it.


between 12 and 2 on who's time?

Fascinating thread. Sometimes what we don't see is as important as what we do.
I tend to agree w/ the idea that no one wears a watch because, "on an island, time means nothing," but it's still an interesting observation that NO clocks were seen at all. You'd think they might need to know time for things like "town meetings" or a book club.

I think it's interesting that, as SaveTheHumans noted, everything is retro.

(I think it's quite possible that, as corvin mentioned, TPBL felt it is easier to simply eliminate any signs of time rather worry about the continuity of every scene's time pieces.)

Maybe there are no mailboxes cuz there's only 30 -40 people in town, so they see each other quite often--no mail service required. They can walk to each other's homes.

I never even picked up on the lack of clocks and watches, intriging, but I do think the experiments the animals were performing have been now applied to humans.
Like Sawyer in the bear cage, and maybe even the life extension program that Joop was part of.

Maybe there are no mailboxes cuz there's only 30 -40 people in town, so they see each other quite often--no mail service required. They can walk to each other's homes.
Hey, wait a minute! Why hasn't the USPS found this place yet? :24:

Maybe there are no mailboxes cuz there's only 30 -40 people in town, so they see each other quite often--no mail service required.

So maybe the autopsy report was dropped off at the Pak'n Post?

between 12 and 2 on who's time?

I don't remember it exactly, but I believe it worked out so that the plane left Sydney about 3 in the afternoon, flew northeast for about 5-6 hours (which because of time zones would put them a few hours further ahead) then turned and flew west for about an hour.

So...

the plane crashed about 7 hours after taking off, probably about 3 or 4 time zones ahead of Sydney. 10 or 11 hours ahead of 3 in the afternoon is 1 or 2 in the morning. In most places, it's fairly dark at that time of day.

Someone else figured this out first somewhere on this forum, so look for that if you want to check the numbers.

But the Others saw the crash take place in broad daylight... so...

The plumbing doesn't seem to be state-of-the-art either. :undecide:

Our "minute" is of course based upon an arbitrary agreement to use a circle as the template: 360 degrees, the sexagesimal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal) or base-60 system. 60 seconds to a minute, 60 seconds to an hour. That our system doesn't match up to the solar year doesn't faze us. We just routinely reset our calendars and instruments, and we don't mind at all that the sunrise and sunset times change daily.

We could, if we wanted, all switch to a different system to measure a minute, say - maybe - iterations (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=506). If we used iterations, nothing in the natural world would change but we'd be looking differently at time. Of course if those iterations were computer generated and something went awry (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=1093), we'd be screwed.

Or we could agree to use some shape other than a circle (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=737&pos=133) for a clock, with degrees more or less than 60 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=1344). Then our minutes would be longer or shorter. In a science fiction plot, this device could be used to create some havoc for persons relying upon traditional assumptions (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=20).


Ooooh...I'm just starting to absorb some of this post. Really interesting ideas. I really like your thoughts on a circular clock. Cool!:cool:

I know this great discussion has gotten into the "time" element, and I believe it is a big factor in this story. But getting back to the initial "What we don't see," I have noticed lots of things out of the ordinary for a community and some of it ties in with the "time" discussion.

Firstly, what I noticed (and I may have missed some) "what we don't see," that you would see in an "ordinary" community other than the children & clocks and watches already mentioned, we see ... no garages, no driveways, no modes of transportation, i.e. cars, bikes, motorcycles, trucks, or roads for that matter. The only mode of transport we've seen the Others have had is the boat they "gave" to Michael. We see no mailboxes, no visible TVs, radios, computers that bring in the "outside" world. It's like they have nowhere to go but stay in their little corner of the world ... until the plane crashes and they trek through the jungle to grab the survivors they want. And for what?

Also Juliet's house looked very behind the "times," nothing modern that catches your eye, except a CD player and tons of CDs! I'm sure I may have missed some things, but even though we know this is not an "ordinary" community ... this is weird! I'm not even sure what the point is that I'm trying to make. I just thought we don't see a lot in this community except people existing as they did when there was a new frontier to be explored and "civilized." And now I'm wondering how "behind the times" are they? How long have they been there? Why are they still there? And yet they get supplies...from where?

Like I said, not sure the point I'm trying to make ... just wondering ... any thoughts?

Thanks everyone for all the input.

Good additions, Hubba. Regarding transport, there aren't even horses, yet one can hear roosters during Sawyer's scenes, indicating the domestication of livestock(and, obviously, Kate's breakfast) Regarding the book club - where's the library? They all had copies of "Carrie." I personally don't have a copy, although I have read it. Are ALL necessities provided by the beneficent "suppliers?"
100%
does the computer in the pearl hatch count? since the papers it printed out did show the time in which the numbers were put in, as well as the date.

Sorry for the double post. I'm not sophisticated enough to "double quote." :confused:

Good observation, Nuno. That is an exception. It wasn't common knowledge, though, in Othersville.

I think they took the kids for the same reason they took the good people -they were there. The kids were innocent and therefore good. I don't think they want kids for an nefarious reason. The kids needed a home and the community had homes for them. It would have been dumb to leave them to suffer on the beach. I imagine they had quite a few people who wanted to give newborn Alex a home. Note the Others kept the name her mother had given her out of what I would like to think was respect for Rousseau.

I think they took Alex because they felt her mother was crazy and would kill her. And the first time Alex picked up any little bug her mother would have killed her. Anyone who got the sniffles on Rousseau’s team was toast.

I still find it odd that we didnt see Alex in Othersville or any teens in the scenes of the town before the crash and the wide camera pan after Goodwin and Ethen took off. We see young teens after the crash being put to work by Zeke and company but not in the town before the crash. This makes me think that the ones that live in the houses are high up in the group/cult/society

.I'm just starting to absorb some of this post.

Heck, I'm just starting to absorb it too :smile:.
I did find out that an octagon (dharma symbol) has 1080 degrees. That would give them 1080 of their minutes to one of their hours. I'm not good enough at number systems to calculate how long one of their minutes would be - certainly not 60 seconds, and probably not 3 of our minutes (1080:360 is 3:1).
We've had 108 minutes and 216 hours (vaccine's 9 days) as prominent intervals, in our time's terms. These are oddball schedules for our time so might be hints at an alternate time system.

Waybackwhen, someone (Javi?) was asked about the dharma symbol's relevance and he said something like we should look at it in its most elemental form. I've been trying to do that ever since, but I flunked geometry so can't get there.

I kinda like the iterations concept better since it would justify those blasted insomnia-inducing printouts and mainly because it leaves room for lots of blips. Time could be more flexible, and consistency and continuity issues wouldn't be biggies.

Enough. My point is - we've seen things that *could* be interpreted as hints of alternate time. Or not. That's as far as I'm going with this, I don't take it seriously. It's just a fun way to pass the time ( :redface: no pun intended) until tomorrow night.

This is a neat thread.

But the one thing that sticks out is the same thing that stuck out last season in the Hatch
. . .everything is retro. Even CD players (the most modern thing I'VE seen among Others and Dharma stuff) aren't THAT recent.

I think that modern additions to what was already there ended around the late 1980s. Except for the lostaways, I haven't seen anything that couldn't have been around prior to 1990--have you? Oh, wait--someone had an I-pod, didn't they? Something found among the plane's wreckage, maybe? And The Others/Dharma folks DO get supplies. Maybe the occasional new gadget pops up. But nothing that really overturns the infrastructure of Their "society." Maybe They CHOOSE to keep it that way.


How about the baby acessories in "Maternity Leave" in the medical hatch? It seemed to me that many of those were of more recent vintage. But I'd have to go back and review the episode to make sure...

I think the reason we didn't see Alex or any other children in "A Tale of Two Cities" is because:

1.) They can only contract Tania Raymonde for a certain number of episodes before they're required, per SAG standards, to upgrade her to series regular (which would mean they'd have to pay her more $$$ per episode)...and they don't want to use up all of their allotted "Alex episodes" this early in the season.

2.) If there were already children and teens within The Others hierarchy prior to the plane crash, maybe the younger Others are all housed at another facility in a separate area of the island, with caretakers to brainwash (er, I mean, "guide"...) and look after them?

Call me crazy and obsessive, but I timed that 3 minutes last season, and Michael got nothing close to 3 minutes with Walt.

That's because Miss Klugh ended Michael and Walt's reunion early, since Walt was revealing too much to Michael.

...Time to look for more things we DON'T see at Otherville.


Even though there's a radio transmission on the island, we see no broadcasting equipment. They don't have TVs or radios, they have a cd player, turntable, etc.

Again, just not shown.

Don

So maybe the autopsy report was dropped off at the Pak'n Post?
LOL...ya got me. I was thinking more along the lines of a fax.


Regarding transport, there aren't even horses...
They all had copies of "Carrie." I personally don't have a copy, although I have read it. Are ALL necessities provided by the beneficent "suppliers?"

Well, they may have one horse, if Kate's "vision" was real.ha. :)

I do consider books to be necessities!
I would like to know where the bk club got that many copies of Carrie, though.
How often do they get drops, I wonder, or do they produce all their own food? If a food drop was given to Lostaway Beach, it's reasonable to think that Otherville gets one as well.

Re the speculation in this thread that perhaps the Others/ islanders don't age. Then why did Alex grow up in a standard amount of time?

Children would be an expected part of a mixed community but the remark in this thread about they could be at school is valid. It could be boarding school off island or they could be on a field trip (hiking through the jungle bare foot) but we know from season 2 that there are children on the island.

If time is out of sync with the outside world, the date of Desmond's computer print out would not have matched the plane crash date. But I like the notice of missing watches. However why would they need them? They are not living in an 8 to 5 world on the island. The lack of cars, no roads = no cars or is it no cars = no roads? either way importing gasoline & cars to a rugged jungle island, where they would see very limited use, would be an expensive waste of funds in my view.

Add to the list of what we did not see - a Church or School. Perhaps too small a population for such?

Hello.

not sure what you are trying to do here but posting hello on several threads and not adding to the convo is considered spamming. so just stop it now. deleting your original post now.

Re the speculation in this thread that perhaps the Others/ islanders don't age. Then why did Alex grow up in a standard amount of time? As I theorized earlier, perhaps she's not been exposed to whatever it is that is keeping the Others young or timeless. Or perhaps she's been vaccinated against it.

Children would be an expected part of a mixed community but the remark in this thread about they could be at school is valid. It could be boarding school off island or they could be on a field trip (hiking through the jungle bare foot) but we know from season 2 that there are children on the island. That part in Season 2 takes place after the scene we're discussing, so these children in season 2 could be (and probably are) the children the Others captured when the tailies first landed.

If time is out of sync with the outside world, the date of Desmond's computer print out would not have matched the plane crash date. Excellent observation. But I like the notice of missing watches. However why would they need them? They are not living in an 8 to 5 world on the island. The lack of cars, no roads = no cars or is it no cars = no roads? either way importing gasoline & cars to a rugged jungle island, where they would see very limited use, would be an expensive waste of funds in my view. Ah, but they *are* importing gasoline - at least for their boat.

But, we didn't see thier entire camp. When the camera pulls out we can see a second area to the right and forward of of the area we did see, that is at least as large.

What if they have a school over there?

We haven't seen it all just yet, maybe the kids are there.

As for clocks and watches, the "system failure" print out had a time on it. I think it was like 4pm.

I bet they have clocks, and I bet they are not infertile. I think it has more to do with creating a gene pool, a certain gene pool, to repopulate the world after it ends. Someone is stocking up a gene pool.

Wow this is a reallllly good thread! These suggestions are neither so complex that it seems ridiculous for the writers to have gone to the trouble nor too simple. Lots of interesting thoughts here to contemplate....

Hey, wait a minute! Why hasn't the USPS found this place yet? :24:

Unfortunately, the USPS can't even find New Zealand half the time. I have a brother who lives there and I regularly get mail I have sent returned to me as undeliverable where delivery has been attempted in New Mexico, New Hampshire and even California.

Now, to the topic ...

I think the lack of clocks could be sort of a disorienting factor ... like in LasVegas. You practically have to go into one of the shops to find a watch in Vegas. It keeps people slightly disoriented and out of touch ... to keep them gambling ... to influence their behavior ... to make them do what the casinos want them to do.

Granted, time alone does not control people, but it is a well known and well used factor in subtle behavioral influence.

Perhaps the Others live primarily by routine rather than by a time clock. That would help keep them in their routine, because without clocks, if you were to break your routine it would be difficult to know how much time you had to either spare or make up in order to complete the remainder of your routine.

Just a thought.

We only saw inside one of the homes, and we only saw two rooms, and not fully photographed.

I'm just saying before we start making claims about what we did or did not see, don't we need the whole picture?

I know it's just a theory that's been thrown out, and not even one that is bad, or wrong, it could certainly be correct.

The main reason I think they keep time is, he tells Goodwin "You can make it in about an hour":rockon:

An hour is a measure of time, so, they keep time.

I've long had the impression that the children were kidnapped because working with children on a show like this would be difficult. And I'm not surprised at the lack of clocks and watches - that adds a really difficult layer to production. But I do think we'll see a difference in time on the island.

Re: lack of clocks / subject of sterility: A reference to biological clocks? Not only have they stopped running - they've left the building.

Me thoughs on the lack of children; I think the Others are part of a scientific study (exactly what kind Im not sure about, perhaps an antropological one?). However, it is really unethical to use children in scinetific studies and therfore the others send them back to the real world (as they allowed Michael and Walt go).

Abotu the clocks and watches (or rather, the absence of them); I have a feeling that is significant.... In flashbacks we have seen watches, usually not calenders but at least watches. So why not in Otheville??? Most people have watches, even if they don't need them, so the absence could very well mean something real.....

I know this great discussion has gotten into the "time" element, and I believe it is a big factor in this story. But getting back to the initial "What we don't see," I have noticed lots of things out of the ordinary for a community and some of it ties in with the "time" discussion.

Firstly, what I noticed (and I may have missed some) "what we don't see," that you would see in an "ordinary" community other than the children & clocks and watches already mentioned, we see ... no garages, no driveways, no modes of transportation, i.e. cars, bikes, motorcycles, trucks, or roads for that matter. The only mode of transport we've seen the Others have had is the boat they "gave" to Michael. We see no mailboxes, no visible TVs, radios, computers that bring in the "outside" world. It's like they have nowhere to go but stay in their little corner of the world ... until the plane crashes and they trek through the jungle to grab the survivors they want. And for what?

Also Juliet's house looked very behind the "times," nothing modern that catches your eye, except a CD player and tons of CDs! I'm sure I may have missed some things, but even though we know this is not an "ordinary" community ... this is weird! I'm not even sure what the point is that I'm trying to make. I just thought we don't see a lot in this community except people existing as they did when there was a new frontier to be explored and "civilized." And now I'm wondering how "behind the times" are they? How long have they been there? Why are they still there? And yet they get supplies...from where?

Like I said, not sure the point I'm trying to make ... just wondering ... any thoughts?

Why would they have garages on an island covered in jungle ?

I think it's a good idea that the Others wouldn't want to share their island with just anybody and so run checks. Doesn't Juliet ask Jack which flight he was on and then come up with all the info ?
Although they could have acquired that info from Claire, Charlie or the eternally lost Cindy.

Ah, but they *are* importing gasoline - at least for their boat. LOL sure but a boat is a useful transportation device when you live on a rugged island and the gas one boat would require is less that a multitude of cars would require. My remark was directed towards cars and gas for the cars as a combination of limited utility on an island such as this one.
That part in Season 2 takes place after the scene we're discussing, so these children in season 2 could be (and probably are) the children the Others captured when the tailies first landed. I believe we saw more children than there were on the plane. But then I don't have a passenger list.

We only saw inside one of the homes, and we only saw two rooms, and not fully photographed.

I'm just saying before we start making claims about what we did or did not see, don't we need the whole picture?Nope. True we only saw part of the interior of one house, but the same is true of the hatches and we have only seen part of the island etc etc It is reasonable to speculate about what the powers have chosen to reveal to us in an episode that shows only part of the house, the hatches, the Others, the island or the Lostee's.

I believe we saw more children than there were on the plane. But then I don't have a passenger list. But we only saw feet. How do we know which of those feet were children's feet?

But we only saw feet. How do we know which of those feet were children's feet?

We saw feet and knees. With such a short distance from the feet to the knees, there are either several children ... or there are some as yet unseen, midgets or dwarves on the island.

I think it has more to do with creating a gene pool, a certain gene pool, to repopulate the world after it ends. Someone is stocking up a gene pool.

Seriously I can't believe i never thought of this, especially makes sense after the Lost Experience this summer. If the experiments on the island cant change the factors that will lead to the end of the world, then maybe they will need to repopulate. You're so smart :biggrin:

mk, so i don't know if the time thing was cleared up but my friend had an awesome insight: If there's no time on the island, how do the corpses rot? (remember the drug dealer from Nigeria and Yemi)

Also, my theory on Ben is that he is the son of the DeGroots and he was sick of being on the island or something and they are gone. But I don't know how the other people got there.

I just read about Cindy and that triggered a thought that I had as I was reviewing the second season. As they were crossing the jungle, I could barely hear her walk. Although, I could have just not been listening very hard.

Also, the earth shaking before the crash could have been because Desmond didn't push the button before the 4 mins were up.

And finally, Juliet could have gotten the autopsy from the Others' coroner when the body was found on the island.

Gosh, thanks. :coolorng:

Mind you I have a feeling tonights episode might change my theory about all that!

Our "minute" is of course based upon an arbitrary agreement to use a circle as the template: 360 degrees, the sexagesimal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal) or base-60 system. 60 seconds to a minute, 60 seconds to an hour. That our system doesn't match up to the solar year doesn't faze us. We just routinely reset our calendars and instruments, and we don't mind at all that the sunrise and sunset times change daily.
.

That is not entirely accurate. The measure of a second as a measureable time first arose from the use of a pendulum one meter in length measuring one beat (from one side to the other). It has since evolved from there to using measures of the resonance of atomic isotopes.

References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock


We could, if we wanted, all switch to a different system to measure a minute, say - maybe - iterations (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=506). If we used iterations, nothing in the natural world would change but we'd be looking differently at time. Of course if those iterations were computer generated and something went awry (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=1093), we'd be screwed.
This isn't quite accurate either. The natural world does change. The Earth has been known to shift on its axis and since the world is not a perfect sphere, wobbles a bit and also is affected by the moon and weather. The net effect is that the length of a day is not static whatsoever. But since our lives are but a tiny blip in the life of a planet, this doesn't matter in our day to day lives.

References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_rotation
http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/060626_earth_wobbles.html
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0210rotation.html

Or we could agree to use some shape other than a circle (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=737&pos=133) for a clock, with degrees more or less than 60 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=1344). Then our minutes would be longer or shorter. In a science fiction plot, this device could be used to create some havoc for persons relying upon traditional assumptions (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1085&pos=20).Or not use a circle at all. I'm thinking of something with a digital panel of nothing but numbers . . .

Not all measures of time need rely upon 60 second divisions into a minute. UNIX/Linux systems measure time in POSIX time--the number of elapsed seconds since midnight UTC, January 1, 1970 (not counting leap seconds).

Sure circles and time have similarly named measures (as does measures of latitude and longitude), but one not need have arisen from the other. The fact that clock is circular has nothing to do with a circle in general. It was the easiest and most obvious mechanical configuration when using wheels and gears.

References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX_time

I hold the view that they are sterile

Perhaps they live in a celebate society.

I don't know if it's been mentioned in any other threads, but here's something we can cross of the list of things we haven't seen yet - a bicycle. There's one lying on the ground in front of the house next to Juliet's after they all come running out of their houses.

So they have *some* form of mechanical transportation outside of the boat...

EDIT: You know, there's something else missing from Othersville - Zeke (Mr. Friendly, Tom, whoever). I didn't see him at their little village. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, of course, but still, he's not there.

This isn't quite accurate either. The natural world does change. The Earth has been known to shift on its axis and since the world is not a perfect sphere, wobbles a bit and also is affected by the moon and weather. The net effect is that the length of a day is not static whatsoever. But since our lives are but a tiny blip in the life of a planet, this doesn't matter in our day to day lives.


the world doesn't change if the humans decide to use different scales or measurements of time... just like the world didn't change when most of the world tried to start using metric lengths.

i know the world changes, but not if we just start measuring it differently

The measure of a second as a measureable time first arose from the use of a pendulum one meter in length measuring one beat (from one side to the other).
I don't doubt you're right. However, I wasn't addressing the length of a second but rather the sexagesimal basis for assigning 60 minutes to an hour and 60 seconds to a minute. Reference: National Instititute of Standards and Technology (http://tf.nist.gov/general/history.htm).


This isn't quite accurate either. The natural world does changeAgain you're correct, and again that wasn't my point. I said a society could agree to use iterations to measure time. These iterations, like the sexagesimal system, would be artificial. They would have no affect on earth's rotation or orbit.

Or not use a circle at all. I'm thinking of something with a digital panel of nothing but numbers . . .Sure, and depending upon how it's designed to work, it could be either a binary system or an iteration, or both. Probably other things too.

Not all measures of time need rely upon 60 second divisions into a minute.Exactly, that was my point!

The fact that clock is circular has nothing to do with a circle in general. It was the easiest and most obvious mechanical configuration when using wheels and gears.I wasn't referring to a clock but rather to a circle as a plane, which is the basis for using the sexagesimal system for measuring time (http://www.weights-and-measures.com/xcomsexagesimal.html). A circle has 360 degrees, an octagon 1080 degrees. If a society adopted the octagon, they would likely opt for something other than a sexagesimal base.

I rambled all over the place in my original post. Sorry I didn't make my points clear, I'm bad about that.. :redface:

I don't know if it's been mentioned in any other threads, but here's something we can cross of the list of things we haven't seen yet - a bicycle. There's one lying on the ground in front of the house next to Juliet's after they all come running out of their houses.

So they have *some* form of mechanical transportation outside of the boat...

EDIT: You know, there's something else missing from Othersville - Zeke (Mr. Friendly, Tom, whoever). I didn't see him at their little village. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, of course, but still, he's not there.

Ah, excellent, Vertical. I had not noticed the bicycle (busy looking for watches, I suppose), nor the PEOPLE who were missing. Thanks.

Regarding things not seen in Othersville... Anyone else notice a lack of jewelery? No watches, rings, earings.... Am I crazy here?

Also, regarding time on the island... In the hatch (Swan), it would be very easy to manipulate time as they were using artificial sunlight. Could it be that Dharma has wired the Swan so that time passes quicker/slower than usual? Is it possible that Desmond hasn't been on the island as long as he thought?

First post, glad I found this place.

Regarding things not seen in Othersville... Anyone else notice a lack of jewelery? No watches, rings, earings.... Am I crazy here?

Did not notice, but Tom/Zeke (although not seen in O-town) wears a big ring.

Also, regarding time on the island... In the hatch (Swan), it would be very easy to manipulate time as they were using artificial sunlight. Could it be that Dharma has wired the Swan so that time passes quicker/slower than usual? Is it possible that Desmond hasn't been on the island as long as he thought?

Very possible. Your description would involve deception. But the actual manipulation of Time is one of my favorite theories.

There are loads of "clues" (or just references) about time in LOST.

Also an old interview with David Fury (former writer) quoted him about deleted dialogue where Danielle was asked what her team was studying, and she said "Time".
First post, glad I found this place.
Great first post, welcome to the 'Lage!!!

Here are some of my thoughts relevent to the ideas of this thread:

1) The NO kids/sterility theory is interesting in that Sun was sterile but was mysteriously healed by the island and now preganant


sun's not sterile. Jin is.

The gene pool theory is a good one. I can't believe I didn't think about it before. I think we are just not seeing the whole of Othersville. They probably have the kids there somewhere. Maybe the batteries wear out too fast on the island and they gave up on watches.

Last night, after the show I started to think about the ages of the Others, and the lack of children.

The last time I saw children, outside of the Lostie baby, were those who were roaming the jungle, one of which was dragging a teddy bear. They appeared to be a rag-tag group,...unlike the newly discovered Others, who live in Island Surburbia.

And,...the ages of the Others. I was in college in the '70's, about the time the Dharma Experiment actually took seed, as per the show. My children are 25, and 23. Not 45 to 50, and up. Some of the Others are younger.

I think they are the remnants of Dharma,...parents, and children.

If not, then the time theory talked about could be the reason for the wide range of ages. If the Others do procreate, perhaps their children age more quickly, or slowly, depending upon something,...of which I cannot speculate.

Juliette was 30'ish. Ben is definately pushing 50, or even passed it. When the Others were guarding Sawyer and Kate, while they moved rocks, I noticed a very young man, probably 20'ish, talking to Juliette, and they were laughing.

Ben stating he was born on the island really threw me. If he's near 50, then something is wrong here. The Dharma people would be in their 50's and up. How could Ben have been born there, and be the age he is today?

I don't think Dharma would deliberately take children into an experiment situation, and anyway, how could he be that old if he is a child of one of the Dharmites? He could only be in his 30's, if born there. Perhaps, he's a clone?

Also, I think the big guy who took Kate to the shower, and takes Sawyer, and Kate out of the cages, is Zeke, without his makeup.

Did anybody identify the Stephen King book that Juliette was holding while standing outside her house, after the jet crashed?

And,...why didn't they just blow up the sailboat? They don't need it, I assume. Why keep it, unless they plan of putting another Lostie on it, telling them to take a heading of "whatever" to return home???? Did Ben tell them to not only take the sailboat, but to try to take another Lostie, or did I hear it incorrectly?

If the Losties get control of the sailboat, again, they could sail around the island, and find the Others! This was stated in the Ballerina show.

I got the distinct impression that the Others have contact with the outside world, and could summon transportation, at will. I also get the impression that the Others like the way that they live,...alone, secluded, in their lost Island Surburbia, and that they do not want visitors because of what they are doing, or something else.

And, perhaps, visitors are not possible,...at least not unless they desire new blood, or an accident happens with the magnets. Ben obviously knows about the computer, the Swan, the strengths and weaknesses of the Losties, the magnets,...everything the Losties know.

My question is why? Why do they need to keep the Losties with them? Why can't the just call a rescue team to take them away, so that they do not pollute the Other's environment? Why all the obvious experiments,...unless they are looking for replacements, or new DNA?

Why test the Losties? It's not like the Others are stellar of character. They are as bad as any of the Losties, and have proven it by their nasty, unreasonable experiments. They are not good as they claim.

Sun was a shocker. What a liar she is. She lied to save her own neck, regardless of the serious consequences,....makes one want to say hmmmmm. And Jin, ditto liar,...he lied about understanding English.

Sayid what the heck was that all about? He's a soldier, and a good one,...why such a lame storyline for him? The old Sayid would never have allowed that scenario to happen.

Then Ben, introducing himself to Jack, and tempting him the way he did. He's playing the Devil's Advocate, and he thinks he's got Jack's personna down pat. I think Ben has greatly misinterpreted Jack, and his moraes. Jack will be tempted by Ben, but he will not leave his friends, to suffer, on that nightmare island, just to save his own neck!

Jack's a good guy,...even though we saw his distrubing breakdown in flashbacks. You can't change a leopard's spots,...he is a boy scout. Mr. Clean. He will not fail his friends, regardless of how it appears to us.

I don't think Dharma would deliberately take children into an experiment situation


you wouldn't? there are some crazy scientists (i can say that because i'm in a scientific field) that would go through dramatic lengths to get the knowledge they want to study. having a secret island that is undetectable... the US armed forces seem to be involved... this is definitely a secretive operation. they definitely could have the choice to do whatever they want basically. now whether or not Dharma is ethically motivated, then why exactly are there so many repercautions for this obviously secretive operation?


Also, I think the big guy who took Kate to the shower, and takes Sawyer, and Kate out of the cages, is Zeke, without his makeup.

you're dead on :)


Did anybody identify the Stephen King book that Juliette was holding while standing outside her house, after the jet crashed?

Carrie


My question is why? Why do they need to keep the Losties with them? Why can't the just call a rescue team to take them away, so that they do not pollute the Other's environment? Why all the obvious experiments,...unless they are looking for replacements, or new DNA?

this kind of goes with the "very secretive"-ness of the operations. if there's a crash and there are people on it, you don't want to just let them go so they can blab about what they saw to the news. then it wouldn't be secret anymore. even if what they blabbed was "yeah we crashed on this island on lat -- degrees and long -- degrees" (which i think could be told by instruments on the plane) then their secret island is no longer a secret and the eyes of the world can just peak in whenever they want and be like "ooo, what's going on?"


Why test the Losties? It's not like the Others are stellar of character. They are as bad as any of the Losties, and have proven it by their nasty, unreasonable experiments. They are not good as they claim.

i totally agree with you there. the others are evil. and the tests they're doing to the losties are the tests that would not pass ethical boards for psych and therefore need the special secrete island they're on.

i hope this helped? i took some nyquil awhile ago and it definitely kicked in before i wrote this message

[/quote]Maybe time stands still on the Island. Im wondering if they were to get off the Island if there would be no time lapse in the real world.[/quote]

How would Benry know about events that has taken place off the island since the plane had crashed, or have a tape of the World Series?

I think maybe there are no longer clocks and watches shown because we the veiwers scrutinize everything so tightly TPBL felt it is easier to simply eliminate any signs of time rather worry about the continuity of every scene's time pieces.This is a great point. The production and continuity folks woul dhave to be constantly keeping track of the exact time of every event in the script and setting every prop clock to that time. It would eat up a lot of time and expense.

But what it put me in mind of is that now I wonder how many clocks and watches we see on other shows? If the above is true, then it seems the lack of clocks would be a common practice. I'll be watching for them every time I turn on the TV, now.

This is a neat thread.

But the one thing that sticks out is the same thing that stuck out last season in the Hatch
. . .everything is retro. Even CD players (the most modern thing I'VE seen among Others and Dharma stuff) aren't THAT recent.The washer and dryer in the Swan are pretty recent. And Libby commented on that.

Hey, wait a minute! Why hasn't the USPS found this place yet? :24:No, but as I understand it, Tom Hanks stopps by to deliver the occasional FedEx package. :biggrin:

Seriously I can't believe i never thought of this, especially makes sense after the Lost Experience this summer. If the experiments on the island cant change the factors that will lead to the end of the world, then maybe they will need to repopulate. You're so smart :biggrin:OMG! :eek2: I had thought of the idea that they might need breeding stock to mantain their insular community, but I can't believe it never occurred to me that the whole purpose of that community might be to have people survive the Valenzetti-predicted end of civilization, then repopulate the world! So the DHARMA Initiative failed, and they're just biding their time until they have to start their repopulation project.

Yeah. I noticed no kids were there.

I think they got the children and sent them off the island - but that doesn't really hold because we saw the children's feet walking in the jungle and that teddy bear in the one episode :(

My big idea is that it's like Bernards Watch.. Anybody waych that show? No, just me then..

I see what you're saying Tach,...but remember,.....the latitude and longitudes would be wrong.

We already saw how the compass spun around, and we know that north, south, east and west are skewed due to an anomaly on the island.

I don't think the Losties, or Tailies would be able to give anybody directions to the island due to this irregularity.

OK, I agree that the lack of watches and clocks is a production decision to prevent any mistakes making it to air and then being dragged across the hot coals of all these discussion boards. A major ****-up would cause an outcry from fans and show that we're reading faaaar too much into some of the things we see.

I like the idea that Ben is the DeGroutes kid, but he said a different surname (I forget what) so I doubt he's a genetic son ... maybe clone, maybe experiment .. who knows. I don't think we'll find out about the nature of the Dharma experiment until later in season 3.


Personally I think that the 'time' element should be taken less literally. I think that there are fluxes in time on the island that can/could be controlled by Dharma. This is why the island suddenly 'appears' on the screens for those two poor cold looking guys in some research tation at the end of season 2. It has popped back into coinciding time.

Because the island is out of normal time flow it is possible that although the experiments were set up in 1970's the separation on the island allows them to slide in time to see the result of long experiments in a short time. i.e. Joop. If you want to know how old he'll get from a treatment, it's a bit harsh to have to wait 120 years each time. However, if you can manipulate time so you can see the future, then you'll be able to explore lots of possible futures and see lots more experimental results in a short space of time. The side effect of this is that the island time fluxes. The result of this is vivid flash backs, deja vu, plus different people aging at different rates, so the lack of children could be because they decided not to have kids as some of them were growing up faster than their parents. Maybe ?

Remember that, in the pearl station the exact dates and times, the code was entered in the swan station, where recorded? So time does exist on the island.

OK, I agree that the lack of watches and clocks is a production decision to prevent any mistakes making it to air and then being dragged across the hot coals of all these discussion boards. A major ****-up would cause an outcry from fans and show that we're reading faaaar too much into some of the things we see.

I can't agree with that at all. Clocks, watches, and other timepieces have been displayed on many of the losties (heck, Jack is wearing his in captivity!), but never on an "other." If that were the case, why all the clocks displaying the "numbers" in seasons 1 and 2? There was a conscious decision to omit them, imho. Oh, and during Locke's sweat lodge "trip (2 episodes later)" what was Jack doing? TAKING OFF HIS WATCH!

Yes, but was the time on his watch shown to us? Or was it just there as a prop? I can't speak for anyone else, but what I'm thinking is that, yes, of course time does exist on the Island, but maybe the viewers aren't shown the time on clocks because it would make for nightmares in continuity, and, as Admiral stated, "show that we're reading faaaar too much into some of the things we see."

Time passes, of course. I like the time travel idea, cuz it's so much fun to read and watch. So are the effects of deja vu. Anything that plays with time can be fun to watch.
But I haven't decided just what's truly going on yet. We just haven't been fed enough information (for me) to make that decision.

I agree with the above statement. We dont have enough yet to know about the time issue. But, like the thread suggest...

We dont see watches on the Others. DL stated that time isnt what it seems for the Lostees. I havent forgotten that. So why no watches? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt water flow "backwards" in a toilet near the equator on one side, and in the opposite direction just 5 feet away? Could the electromagnetic anomaly make wristwatches run backwards? Is that why the Lostees watches dont work? Is that why the Others didnt bother getting some from the outside world? I mean, CD players and TV's but not a single clock or watch? :confused:

Referring children.

I stated in this thread ( Suffer the Children (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=59032&highlight=suffer+the+children) ) that perhaps the Others are sterile since the incident in 1986, thus the high interest in Rousseau's and Claire's babies. I can already see the Others telling Sawyer that if he wants off the Island, all he has to do is get Kate pregnant.

In suffer the children, we discuss the possibility that it's the Others kids that have the "sickness". I just wanted to add that.

Namaste, Eric.

i didnt see any power lines, but we know they got power. is it all underground? even going up the side of the mountain? seems silly

Sorry, coming to this thread late, and even though I did try to read all the posts, I may be repeating, but in terms of the passage of time, Benry did tell Jack that exactly 48 or however many days have passed, and Zeke did tell Sawyer that the polar bears took 2 hours to figure out the fish biscuit dispenser.

One last thing about clocks and time.


We all agree the counter is about the only "clock" type thing we've seen that was on the Island pre crash right? So when the timer reaches zero, it switches to hieroglyphs*...So how did the Egyptians calculate time? What was a day for them? An hour or a year? Could this apply to the Island?

One last thing about clocks and time.


We all agree the counter is about the only "clock" type thing we've seen that was on the Island pre crash right? So when the timer reaches zero, it switches to hieroglyphs*...So how did the Egyptians calculate time? What was a day for them? An hour or a year? Could this apply to the Island?

THANK YOU!...I had to read 100 posts before someone finally said it!!!

What was the Swan's 108 computer? Ok we're to believe it was some computer-driven magnetic overload preventer or whatever...BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY A CLOCK! And THAT's what Fenry was there for, to destroy it! It was controlling more than magnetic build-up IMO.

Since it blew up...Desmond is seeing things out of time-sequence, coinky-dink?

Oh and Juliet DID set the timer on the oven...it was buzzing loudly when she ran in and burnt her hand...so either she has no clue how long to bake muffins (possible) or the real-world Kenmore timer doesnt correspond to island cooking time...

In Further Instructions, Jack removes his watch so Ben can scan him - symbolism, Jack's time is slipping away
The Glass Ballerina, little Sun stops the metronome - symbolism, a time keeper stopping

LOL! Soylent green!



Maybe time stands still on the Island. Im wondering if they were to get off the Island if there would be no time lapse in the real world.


Like Narnia? lol