I hadn't really thought about it until I read some posts here. For some reason I automatically thought that the 'secondary protocol' was Widmore's personal one. But it seems now that they are Dharma Protocols created as different ways to protect the island in case of an imminent invasion.

So if The Orchid is the Secondary Protocol, what was the primary one?

The only one I can think of is The Swan's button pushing. I believe, if I recall correctly, that Candle himself called this duty a 'protocol' in the Swan Orientation Video.

One of the most popular theories regarding what pushing the button was really for is that, somehow, it kept the Island 'invisible'. Now that the location of the island has been compromised, the only way to protect it is to move it to somewhere else.

Now, it is interesting to notice then that Ben seemed to have wanted the primary protocol to be over. He wanted Locke to stop pushing the button, remember? But he didn't want to be around when that happened because he knew what was gonna happen!!!

Now this makes me think that Ben KNEW already that Widmore had found the location of the island probably BEFORE the purple Sky event. So his spies in the outside world might have informed him that Widmore was gonna sent a boat to look for the island.

Basically, Ben wanted the Swan shutdown in order to be able to use the Dharma Secondary Protocol.

And yes, I believe that while the Swan was still functioning, the Orchid was useless.

Why? I don't know exactly. But I think that there was a deep relationship between both stations.

The EM being controlled by the Swan might somehow have been preventing the Orchid's 'Casimir Effect' from allowing the Island to be moved.

Perhaps the button pushing was a protocol designed to render the Orchid inoperative since the Incident.

Now this begs the question...

What was the Incident then?

Kelvin called it a 'leak'. I believe that whatever it is, it created a malfunction during some experiment at the Orchid. The Result? Something really bad happened to the Island as a whole.
Could it be possible that a duplicate of the Island was created, just like the Bunnies from the Orchid Orientation Video? Perhaps another version of the Island was 'snatched' out the Island's past... I don't know, hundreds of years ago, and now, it lies somewhere around the globe?
Also, what if pushing the button was a way to keep these 'twin' islands apart in space AND time?

According to Halliwax, it is possible that if 'twin' objects touch each other, something very bad might happen.
So what would have happened if the 'twin' islands touched each other? Can we say 'end of the world'?

Every 108 minutes, the 'copied' island might have been trying to 'catch up' with the 'mother' island's time...Pushing the button kept them separated from each other.


So what did using the Failsafe Key achieve? And why wasn't it used before?

What if the failsafe key actually 'destroyed' the copied island before it finally finished catching up in time and space with the 'original/mother' island?


But then, why didn't they do that a long long time ago???? Why not destroying the other island once and for all?

This is quite perplexing, but it opens up VERY interesting ideas.. Unfortunately for some people, they are all way too sci fi...

Like, and this was one of the first 'twists' that came to my mind, what if the Island the Losties are 'LOST' on is not the 'original' one, but the 'copied' one. The one that was 'created' during the Incident at The Orchid?
I know this has lots of holes, but it sounds very very cool.

I think the first protocol was to release the deadly gas which would kill any unprepared invaders, which is why the freighties all showed up with gas masks.

I think the first protocol was to release the deadly gas which would kill any unprepared invaders, which is why the freighties all showed up with gas masks.

Interesting. And it was high on the list of priorities for Faraday and Charlotte to address.

yeah. it could be a slip-up calling the hatch a protocol. i have to agree that it was the gas instead of the hatch, but keep elaborating on those theories. they sound pretty good.

I was thinking along those lines myself, to wit: "The Secondary Protocol seems to be a sort of manual override or manual way of moving the island. Apparently, The Swan being able to function might be the First Protocol, as it may have had a hand in cloaking/keeping the island moving, or stationary somewhere else. With the Swan gone, then once detected, the Second Protocol could be moving the island via the Orchid, "by hand" if you will..." But, now I'm thinking if Widmore/Keamy are thinking of a defensive protocol, from Ben's point of view, then The Tempest would've been his First Protocol, of defense, and The Orchid is his Second Protocol, of defense...in accordance with the prophecy of course...(<>..<>)

I thought primary protocol was to just go in and grab ben, and secondary protocol just details where he would go and how to intercept him.

I thought primary protocol was to just go in and grab ben, and secondary protocol just details where he would go and how to intercept him.
I think that's because we have been looking at it from Widmore/Keamy's POV as their protocol, when really they are looking at it from Dharma/Ben's defensive POV. Like, this is Dharma protocol for defending the island from invasion. First gas 'em and if that doesn't handle the situation, then you move the island. Dharma Defensive Worst Case Protocols-that's what I'm thinking...(<>..<>)

This is interesting, because Naomi had the picture of Desmond with her. Perhaps the Swan was to be one of their stops? At the very least they expected to run into Desmond at some point, as to how they knew he would be there, is anyone's guess. Does Widmore have access to cameras in the Swan? Does Widmore know that Desmond arrived at the island thanks to his race?

Yeah. Those are some loose ends that need tying up.

I think that's because we have been looking at it from Widmore/Keamy's POV as their protocol, when really they are looking at it from Dharma/Ben's defensive POV. Like, this is Dharma protocol for defending the island from invasion. First gas 'em and if that doesn't handle the situation, then you move the island. Dharma Defensive Worst Case Protocols-that's what I'm thinking...(<>..<>)

This is exactly what I think. I started a thread here called Jacob and the Protocol because I wanted to theorize as to how/why Jacob would know what the secondary protocol was. As he (actually Christian, I guess) was the one who told Locke that was what they needed to do.

Following the thinking that these are Dharma Protocols, and why not, it makes sense to me, The Swan would be numero uno. Probably not on the Worst Case Scenerio Protocols because as long as the Swan is working, who can find/get to the island?

It would then make sense that eliminating any intruders would be protocol one; why else have a toxic kill-gas?

Fierro, a few good thoughts I agree with: it does seem like Ben set things in motion so that the swan would be destroyed. Where's the tactical advantage in an apparent war with Widmore when you let your cover get blown?

It makes me think that maybe Ben is enslaved to the island, caught in some time loop and that the only way out is to get someone to take his place. People have mentioned an Atlas/Hercules parallel. It's an interesting idea.

I do think that Ben has been manipulating events so that he can use the Orchid. TPTB have mentioned another Purple Sky Event in the finale. I don't think with a fully function Swan Station that the Orchid could do what Ben wants it to do. Maybe the incident arises from both stations experimenting with electromagnetic properties at the same time and that caused some major bad news.

UnderAlienControl, you just got me thinking. If we go along with the secondary protocol being Dharma's Incase this happens do this, then the Orchid file would be from dharma. Why doesn't Keamy know about going down into the real station? People have been assuming Widmore=Dharma, or that he's been on the island before. If that's the case, then I can see how Widmore has a file on the Orchid. If it's not, then where did he get it from? The man he took into his car on the video Ben showed Locke?

Or does he have in insider in Ben's group? Someone who might now of the orchid and what it does, but who has never been there? Harper maybe?

I shall digress here and point out that the introduction of Harper Stanhope, and the Other Woman in general, could have never been in season four and it would not have made a difference. I'm going to assume that it's a long set up and hope that she is a spy for Widmore.

And I hope next season gives more background on the Dharma Initiative; the swan and Radzinsky and the incident. Eight months is going to be a long time to wait...

The primary protocol was get Ben Linus off the Island and kill everyone else, that's why they went to the secondary protocol after their first attempt failed, thank you Smokey. The secondary protocol is torch the Island and take Ben from the Orchid, the secondary protocol being an emergency plan, obviously the original plan was to keep the Island intact, but clearly the primary objective was to get Ben, so once you couldn't get him keeping the Island intact the next plan was destroying the Island and taking Ben at the Orchid.

This assumes the protocol that Keamy was referring to is Widmore's protocol. I contend that the protocol he refers to is the one that Ben is using to defend the island. And this is prescribed by Dharma of all things.

GAULT: The reason there are two keys is we're only supposed to open the safe together.
KEAMY: You're here, aren't you?
GAULT: What is that?
KEAMY: It's the secondary protocol.
GAULT: What does it say?
KEAMY: Says where Linus is going.
GAULT: How would Mr. Widmore know that?
KEAMY: 'Cause he's a very smart man, and if Linus knows that we're gonna torch the Island, there's only one place that he can go.
GAULT: What do you mean, "torch the Island"? That was not the agreement. I agreed to ferry you here for an extraction mission.


Looking at this, it doesn't appear as though the directive to torch the island is coming from the manual. What he's learning from the manual is what will Ben do now, and that is the secondary protocol.

Just an off the cuff idea but what if the swan was intercepting the power source for the orchid, the charge would build up and be released every 108 mins. Now that the swan is gone the orchid may be juiced up and ready to go, something the di wanted to prevent as the hostiles would want to move the island, kill the DI and live in hiding again.

Just an off the cuff idea but what if the swan was intercepting the power source for the orchid, the charge would build up and be released every 108 mins. Now that the swan is gone the orchid may be juiced up and ready to go, something the di wanted to prevent as the hostiles would want to move the island, kill the DI and live in hiding again.
bingo!

Pronunciation: \ˈprō-tə-ˌkȯl, -ˌkōl, -ˌkäl, -kəl\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle French prothocole, from Medieval Latin protocollum, from Late Greek prōtokollon first sheet of a papyrus roll bearing date of manufacture, from Greek prōt- prot- + kollan to glue together, from kolla glue; perhaps akin to Middle Dutch helen to glueDate:1541 1: an original draft, minute, or record of a document or transaction2 a: a preliminary memorandum often formulated and signed by diplomatic negotiators as a basis for a final convention or treaty b: the records or minutes of a diplomatic conference or congress that show officially the agreements arrived at by the negotiators3 a: a code prescribing strict adherence to correct etiquette and precedence (as in diplomatic exchange and in the military services) <a breach of protocol> b: a set of conventions governing the treatment and especially the formatting of data in an electronic communications system <network protocols> c: convention (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convention) 3a,b4: a detailed plan of a scientific or medical experiment, treatment, or procedure

Just an off the cuff idea but what if the swan was intercepting the power source for the orchid, the charge would build up and be released every 108 mins. Now that the swan is gone the orchid may be juiced up and ready to go, something the di wanted to prevent as the hostiles would want to move the island, kill the DI and live in hiding again.

This has always confused me. What exactly did the failsafe key do then?

i thought it was implicitly stated that the Swan was used to contain and safely discharge the high electromagnetic field that was on the island. and that "the incident" is the high amount of electromagnetic radiation causing people to experience what Desmond and Minkowski was experiencing. it only affected a few people and those that weren't affected thought that those that were were just plain going crazy. therefore, "the sickness" was people getting unstuck in time and not having any constants to anchor them back to a the right timeline. and that the electromagnetic field, side effects notwithstanding, were greatly responsible for the island's healing properties by somehow accelerating cell growth and regeneration (as implied by men having five times the normal sperm count) which is why Ben wanted the Swan to be destroyed. he was most likely taking orders from Jacob or the Island to do what it took to make sure the button stopped being pushed. i thought all of this was pretty obvious after this season.

on another note, has anyone noticed the references made to how the island gets its electricity? Locke asked about it last season, and I believe Farraday or Miles asked about it this season. I think that's another long term set up that will be answered soon, much like the cable under the sand.

on another note, has anyone noticed the references made to how the island gets its electricity? Locke asked about it last season, and I believe Farraday or Miles asked about it this season. I think that's another long term set up that will be answered soon, much like the cable under the sand.

Yes. Thermal energy from the magma beneath the surface. I think this was explicitly stated in the Ben flashback where he was sitting in class, I believe the teacher was mentioning it.

Also, not only did Ben not want the button pushed, but the smoke monster appeared as Walt and told Shannon not to push the button.

Walt himself told Locke not to even open the hatch, which leads me to believe the real Walt not wanting anything to do with the hatch meant the Desmond would continue pushing the button for as long as he lived. This also leads me to believe that Walt was against Jacob, by nature, so The Others wanted to capture Walt and brainwash him. After they discovered they could not brainwash him they just agreed to let Michael get rid take him off-island, since the Others are against killing.

Ms. Hawking wanted the button to be pushed.

Eko wanted the button to be pushed. The smoke monster winds up killing him.

So we have

Jacob/Ben, Smoke Monster, Locke vs. Eko, Ms. Hawking, Desmond, Walt

Jacob, Ben, Smoke Monster, Locke are still alive and on the island.
Eko is dead. Desmond is probably leaving the island. Walt is off the island. Ms. Hawking is off the island.

So whether the island is the good guy or the bad guy here, it's clear the island has gotten its way, at least in terms of the hatch, and it's clear that the island never wanted the Swan hatch in the first place. Perhaps much of what the DI had on the island the island didn't like?

on another note, has anyone noticed the references made to how the island gets its electricity? Locke asked about it last season, and I believe Farraday or Miles asked about it this season.

From "Something Nice Back Home":

(The secret door to the medical lab makes a grinding sound across the floor as it slides open. The four enter the lab.)
DANIEL: where do you suppose all this power's coming from?
CHARLOTTE: Add that one to the list, Dan. Let's just grab the equipment and go, shall we?
100%
Thermal energy from the magma beneath the surface. I think this was explicitly stated in the Ben flashback where he was sitting in class, I believe the teacher was mentioning it.

If you're talking about "Cabin Fever" there's no such statement in the transcript. It seems doubtful that the answer to such a big question would be given via a complete throwaway line.

- mnw

From "Something Nice Back Home":

(The secret door to the medical lab makes a grinding sound across the floor as it slides open. The four enter the lab.)
DANIEL: where do you suppose all this power's coming from?
CHARLOTTE: Add that one to the list, Dan. Let's just grab the equipment and go, shall we?
100%


If you're talking about "Cabin Fever" there's no such statement in the transcript. It seems doubtful that the answer to such a big question would be given via a complete throwaway line.

- mnw


i think he's referring to the scene in "The Man Behind The Curtain" when the teacher played by Samantha Mathis is talking about the model volcano they have and Annie asks if it's like the volcano that used to be active on the island. i didn't catch any references to magma being used to create thermal energy though.

i think he's referring to the scene in "The Man Behind The Curtain" when the teacher played by Samantha Mathis is talking about the model volcano they have and Annie asks if it's like the volcano that used to be active on the island. i didn't catch any references to magma being used to create thermal energy though.
I think Sayid made a reference to geothermal energy back in season 2.

I think Sayid made a reference to geothermal energy back in season 2.

Right, when he was with Jack exploring the tunnels/airshaft in the Swan!

But back to the idea that there are two 'identical' islands as a consequence of the Incident at the Orchid and the copy one is constantly trying to 'catch up' in space and time with the 'original' one, what if the whispers are heard when this island gets 'closer' to 'our' island?

I imagine this other island as an oscillating 'string' or wave. Much like a guitar string vibrating a whole cycle every 108 minutes.

Now, and I know this is way out there, if this is true, during the first half of the 108-cycle, the 'vibrating copy island, would be first getting away from 'our' island then start getting closer again, etc...

Now, I wonder, if this copy island is like a snapshot from the original island from a couple of centuries ago, moving through time and space inside a 108-min cycle, how would time be perceived by people ON that island?

First, when it is trying to catch up to the present time of its sister island, would time be flowing at a faster rate?
And when it is moving away from it, would time be flowing at a slower rate?

I hadn't really thought about it until I read some posts here. For some reason I automatically thought that the 'secondary protocol' was Widmore's personal one. But it seems now that they are Dharma Protocols created as different ways to protect the island in case of an imminent invasion.

So if The Orchid is the Secondary Protocol, what was the primary one?

Keamy opened the secondary protocol in response to the failure of their primary mission, which was the armed extraction of Ben. So I don't know how it can be referring to a DHARMA protocol. If it were, why wouldn't he and Gualt just opened it in the first place? And Daniel said, talking about Keamy, "Did you hear what he said? They're going to the Orchid. They're using the secondary protocol." It doesn't make sense that Keamy et al would be following a DHARMA protocol, as they're not interested in protecting the island, or the stations or the people on it, but rather that they would be following a Widmore protocol designed to nab Ben.

Now, it is interesting to notice then that Ben seemed to have wanted the primary protocol to be over. He wanted Locke to stop pushing the button, remember? But he didn't want to be around when that happened because he knew what was gonna happen!!!
It seemed that Ben was just deriving pleasure from messing with Locke's head. If they stopped pressing the button (if not for Desmond's actions) it would have meant the end of the world... including the end of Ben and the island. So it doesn't seem possible that that's what he wanted. I don't know if he didn't know the reason for the button, or if he did, but he know that the island would find a way to protect itself no matter what.

I don't think that hiding the island was a purpose of the button. The purpose of the button was to release the "buildup of electromagnetism" at regular intervals to prevent a runaway chain reaction. I think once that starts to happen, the electromagnetic buildup being detectable outside the island would be the least of anyone's concerns.

Kelvin called it a 'leak'. I believe that whatever it is, it created a malfunction during some experiment at the Orchid. The Result? Something really bad happened to the Island as a whole... So what did using the Failsafe Key achieve? And why wasn't it used before?
But the Swan station was specifically built over the site on the island containing the "geologically unique electromagnetism". I'm not saying it's unrelated to the Orchid station -- I think they both derive(d) their unique qualities from the same fundamental source -- the natural geological deposits of negative matter (matter with negative mass, not to be confused with antimatter). But the Swan incident was when their experimentation triggered an electromagnetic chain reaction -- like a reactor core meltdown, which Sayid compared it to, when he saw all the thick concrete poured around the station core. My thinking is that this is because the negative matter under the Swan station is metallic, and combined with natural positive matter metal deposits, this allows for a positive feedback loop of negative electromagnetic energy.

The analogy would be if there was a natural uranium deposit that was nearly pure and dense enough to sustain a nuclear chain reaction, and miners blasting in the deposit accidentally compressed it past its critical mass, causing an enormous natural nuclear reactor.

When Desmond was late in pushing the button, the electromagnetic chain reaction had grown strong enough to pull the steel from the plane in, and strong enough that the Antarctic team briefly detected it, but wasn't able to respond quickly enough to get a fix on it.

The button triggered a mechanism which transfered the electromagnetic energy out of the system (maybe into the batteries that power the island), restarting the buildup of the chain reaction. Without that system, the electromagnetism would grow indefinitely, until the attractive force between it and the iron in the earth's core became strong enough to crush the matter between them, destroying all life on the planet.

The failsafe key blew apart this natural reactor, ripping apart the geological deposits, in effect scattering the matter to below its critical mass. The reason they didn't do this in the first place, was probably either that they wanted to keep the phenomenon for its extremely valuable scientific use or else for its likewise valuable power generation function.

Of course, the other, possibly more significant property of negative matter metallic or non-metallic, is its gravitational properties, and specifically its instrumentality in stabilizing the end of a wormhole. And I think it is those specific properties, as opposed to the electromagnetic ones, that the Orchid was designed to exploit. So while the Swan may have been built over the area of metallic negative matter, the Orchid may have been built over the area of the densest concentration of negative matter, which would be the focal point of any wormhole, and the center of the space-time bubble that hides the island.

Keamy opened the secondary protocol in response to the failure of their primary mission, which was the armed extraction of Ben. So I don't know how it can be referring to a DHARMA protocol. If it were, why wouldn't he and Gualt just opened it in the first place? And Daniel said, talking about Keamy, "Did you hear what he said? They're going to the Orchid. They're using the secondary protocol." It doesn't make sense that Keamy et al would be following a DHARMA protocol, as they're not interested in protecting the island, or the stations or the people on it, but rather that they would be following a Widmore protocol designed to nab Ben.


It seemed that Ben was just deriving pleasure from messing with Locke's head. If they stopped pressing the button (if not for Desmond's actions) it would have meant the end of the world... including the end of Ben and the island. So it doesn't seem possible that that's what he wanted. I don't know if he didn't know the reason for the button, or if he did, but he know that the island would find a way to protect itself no matter what.

I don't think that hiding the island was a purpose of the button. The purpose of the button was to release the "buildup of electromagnetism" at regular intervals to prevent a runaway chain reaction. I think once that starts to happen, the electromagnetic buildup being detectable outside the island would be the least of anyone's concerns.


But the Swan station was specifically built over the site on the island containing the "geologically unique electromagnetism". I'm not saying it's unrelated to the Orchid station -- I think they both derive(d) their unique qualities from the same fundamental source -- the natural geological deposits of negative matter (matter with negative mass, not to be confused with antimatter). But the Swan incident was when their experimentation triggered an electromagnetic chain reaction -- like a reactor core meltdown, which Sayid compared it to, when he saw all the thick concrete poured around the station core. My thinking is that this is because the negative matter under the Swan station is metallic, and combined with natural positive matter metal deposits, this allows for a positive feedback loop of negative electromagnetic energy.

The analogy would be if there was a natural uranium deposit that was nearly pure and dense enough to sustain a nuclear chain reaction, and miners blasting in the deposit accidentally compressed it past its critical mass, causing an enormous natural nuclear reactor.

When Desmond was late in pushing the button, the electromagnetic chain reaction had grown strong enough to pull the steel from the plane in, and strong enough that the Antarctic team briefly detected it, but wasn't able to respond quickly enough to get a fix on it.

The button triggered a mechanism which transfered the electromagnetic energy out of the system (maybe into the batteries that power the island), restarting the buildup of the chain reaction. Without that system, the electromagnetism would grow indefinitely, until the attractive force between it and the iron in the earth's core became strong enough to crush the matter between them, destroying all life on the planet.

The failsafe key blew apart this natural reactor, ripping apart the geological deposits, in effect scattering the matter to below its critical mass. The reason they didn't do this in the first place, was probably either that they wanted to keep the phenomenon for its extremely valuable scientific use or else for its likewise valuable power generation function.

Of course, the other, possibly more significant property of negative matter metallic or non-metallic, is its gravitational properties, and specifically its instrumentality in stabilizing the end of a wormhole. And I think it is those specific properties, as opposed to the electromagnetic ones, that the Orchid was designed to exploit. So while the Swan may have been built over the area of metallic negative matter, the Orchid may have been built over the area of the densest concentration of negative matter, which would be the focal point of any wormhole, and the center of the space-time bubble that hides the island.
It all depends on HOW you look at it. The ones following the Secondary Protocol are Ben and company. Jacob knew about it. So it wasn't just a Widmore protocol thing.
The protocol is to use the Orchid to move the island. Period. It is NOT to follow Ben to the Orchid because he is gonna make use of it. Sorry, but that doesn't sound too much as a 'protocol'.
As far as Daniel's comments...Well, by THEY he might have been not refering to Keamy's team, but Ben's.
Keamy is going to the Orchid because Ben is, since he is using the Secondary Protocol.

Both sides of the equation had their own protocols. Ben's were reactive to Widmore's attempt to overtake the island, while Widmore's were reactive to Ben's reaction. Ben's protocols were not actually his own, but were created by the DI, which is why Widmore knows the details. (Yes I'm writing under the assumption that Widmore is/was DI and had access to top-level info.)

First off, understand that in this phase of the game, after a long stalemate period during which the island has been hidden from view for some time, Widmore has made the first move, which is his attempt to invade the island and regain control of the island from Ben. Here are Ben and Widmore parallel protocols:

PROTOCOL ONE:
Ben (Dharma): If under serious threat of island invasion, release gas to kill invaders
Widmore: Stop Ben from releasing gas or disable gas altogether

PROTOCOL TWO:
Ben (Dharma): If unable to stop invasion with gas, retreat to Orchid for further action
Widmore: If unable to capture Ben by surprise, intercept him at the Orchid


Now, why wouldn't Widmore have the mercs head straight for the Orchid to begin with? I think he is reluctant to release any more island info than absolutely necessary to his goons. Daniel, however, is on the island specifically to study the unique properties, including time travel, moving the island, etc, and so he WAS provided info about the Orchid beforehand. I think that although Widmore knew what the Orchid could do, he didn't know specifically how or why it worked, and part of his quest to reclaim the island includes gathering as much detailed scientific info as possible, ASAP.

I realise that I've got some speculative stuff in there, but it all sounds good to me.

Both sides of the equation had their own protocols. Ben's were reactive to Widmore's attempt to overtake the island, while Widmore's were reactive to Ben's reaction. Ben's protocols were not actually his own, but were created by the DI, which is why Widmore knows the details. (Yes I'm writing under the assumption that Widmore is/was DI and had access to top-level info.)

First off, understand that in this phase of the game, after a long stalemate period during which the island has been hidden from view for some time, Widmore has made the first move, which is his attempt to invade the island and regain control of the island from Ben. Here are Ben and Widmore parallel protocols:

PROTOCOL ONE:
Ben (Dharma): If under serious threat of island invasion, release gas to kill invaders
Widmore: Stop Ben from releasing gas or disable gas altogether

PROTOCOL TWO:
Ben (Dharma): If unable to stop invasion with gas, retreat to Orchid for further action
Widmore: If unable to capture Ben by surprise, intercept him at the Orchid


Now, why wouldn't Widmore have the mercs head straight for the Orchid to begin with? I think he is reluctant to release any more island info than absolutely necessary to his goons. Daniel, however, is on the island specifically to study the unique properties, including time travel, moving the island, etc, and so he WAS provided info about the Orchid beforehand. I think that although Widmore knew what the Orchid could do, he didn't know specifically how or why it worked, and part of his quest to reclaim the island includes gathering as much detailed scientific info as possible, ASAP.

I realise that I've got some speculative stuff in there, but it all sounds good to me.

See, I'm more convinced than ever that "secondary protocol" (as used in this episode) refers specifically to Widmore's backup instructions to Keamy and his men. The secondary protocol is not what is enclosed in the Dharma packet - the packet is part of the secondary protocol, the information that Keamy will use to carry it out.

Also, remember, Ben is no longer Dharma. He murdered Dharma. He's now Other.

-AJF

See, I'm more convinced than ever that "secondary protocol" (as used in this episode) refers specifically to Widmore's backup instructions to Keamy and his men. The secondary protocol is not what is enclosed in the Dharma packet - the packet is part of the secondary protocol, the information that Keamy will use to carry it out.

Also, remember, Ben is no longer Dharma. He murdered Dharma. He's now Other.

-AJF


Ben is no longer Dharma, but he has co-opted many of Dharma's facilities and procedures (including these protocols) for the Others' benefit.

Keamy's secondary protocol is to intercept Ben at a secret location which will be explained in the Dharma folder in the safe.

I think you are correct in the idea that every time the word "protocol" was used in the show, it was refering to Keamy's instructions.

See, I'm more convinced than ever that "secondary protocol" (as used in this episode) refers specifically to Widmore's backup instructions to Keamy and his men. The secondary protocol is not what is enclosed in the Dharma packet - the packet is part of the secondary protocol, the information that Keamy will use to carry it out.

Also, remember, Ben is no longer Dharma. He murdered Dharma. He's now Other.

-AJF
So what is exactly the secondary protocol then? What does it say?

'In case Ben goes to the Orchid station, follow him and capture him?

Wasn't that what they had been trying to do all along????


Why didn't Keamy go straight to the Orchid and destroy it before waiting for Ben to make the first move?

Capturing Ben has been always their primary objective. So wherever he goes, they are gonna go, too.
Widmore knew WHERE he was gonna go as a measure of last resort: The Orchid, so he told Keamy what to do and where to go, in case Ben used Dharma's Second Protocol as a last line of defense....

Very interesting questions and all very interesting ideas. It can go anywhere from here, so I'm not sure about anything. However, I'm certain that this will not be addressed thoroughly in the future, but will be explained through something happening to tell us which protocol was what.

The Orchid file could still have been from Dharma, but in Widmore's plan, after Keamy and team meet with forcible resistance, it's their secondary protocol. In terms of Ben, he says it himself, it's a measure of last resort. Every other option before that he's probably thought of and dismissed and he see's the Orchid, though dangerous and unpredictable, as the only way to go.

They have guns and people as well, I don't see why he wouldn't resort to jungle combat with the mercs, seeing as the others can pretty much sneak around a forest like Jason Voorheevs, but who's to question Ben, the man always has a plan...

They have guns and people as well, I don't see why he wouldn't resort to jungle combat with the mercs, seeing as the others can pretty much sneak around a forest like Jason Voorheevs, but who's to question Ben, the man always has a plan...

Actually I have a feeling that we may see that exact scenario unfold.

So what is exactly the secondary protocol then? What does it say?

'In case Ben goes to the Orchid station, follow him and capture him?

Wasn't that what they had been trying to do all along????


Why didn't Keamy go straight to the Orchid and destroy it before waiting for Ben to make the first move?

Capturing Ben has been always their primary objective. So wherever he goes, they are gonna go, too.
Widmore knew WHERE he was gonna go as a measure of last resort: The Orchid, so he told Keamy what to do and where to go, in case Ben used Dharma's Second Protocol as a last line of defense....

Exactly. By knowing the protocols Ben will follow, Keamy can circumvent Ben. But, why didn't Ben already know to go to the Orchid (and move the island) without Locke consulting Jacob first? This is the thing Ikeep asking. How does Jacob know the protocols?

It all depends on HOW you look at it. The ones following the Secondary Protocol are Ben and company. Jacob knew about it. So it wasn't just a Widmore protocol thing.
The protocol is to use the Orchid to move the island. Period. It is NOT to follow Ben to the Orchid because he is gonna make use of it. Sorry, but that doesn't sound too much as a 'protocol'.
As far as Daniel's comments...Well, by THEY he might have been not refering to Keamy's team, but Ben's.
Keamy is going to the Orchid because Ben is, since he is using the Secondary Protocol.

Fierro - If I'm interpreting your statements correctly, I agree with you 100%... Ben stole Widmore's Island, and Widmore wants it back.... the DHARMA protocol states that in the event someone tries to overtake the Island, you gas them. If that fails, use the Orchid to move the Island. Naturally, you would want *VERY* few people to even know about the existence of the Orchid not to mention its abilities; that is why it was locked in the safe that required 2 keys. Widmore didn't want anyone else to know it was even possible to move the Island unless it was an absolute last ditch effort to reclaim it. The protocol from the safe wasn't Widmore's explicit instructions for Keamy and his team in the event their first attempt failed - the protocol from the safe tells Keamy what Ben's next move is. Think of it as 2 football teams, and 1 team steals the other team's playbook along with the order in which they will run those plays. You can stay 1 step in front of them for the entire game.

Fierro - I really enjoy your thoughts on the Swan, and was hoping you might read through a thread I started in General Theories regarding the Swan and how it was essentially acting as an "anchor" to prevent the Island from building up enough charge to move itself. Some of our ideas blend together nicely, but I know there are some definite gray areas... I'd appreciate your thoughts and feedback: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=95524

As for the swan, really I think that it was functioning like a dam, harnessing energy for some purpose. A dam obstructs the flow of the river, building up a resevoir, and the falling water creates energy by turning turbines. But even a few times a day or week you have to bleed off some of that water or it overflows.

Same thing with the Swan I think, Dharma was harnessing the EM energy but if they didn't discharge it then it overflowed and things got very bad. I think turning the failsafe and blowing up the Swan was like blowing up the dam and just letting the water (em energy) flow the way it naturally used to. And Jacob or the island probably really liked the idea of one less station exploiting the island's energy.

As for what they were harnessing the energy for and what it did you guys are way better at theorizing about that then I am :)

Both sides of the equation had their own protocols. Ben's were reactive to Widmore's attempt to overtake the island, while Widmore's were reactive to Ben's reaction. Ben's protocols were not actually his own, but were created by the DI, which is why Widmore knows the details. (Yes I'm writing under the assumption that Widmore is/was DI and had access to top-level info.)

First off, understand that in this phase of the game, after a long stalemate period during which the island has been hidden from view for some time, Widmore has made the first move, which is his attempt to invade the island and regain control of the island from Ben. Here are Ben and Widmore parallel protocols:

PROTOCOL ONE:
Ben (Dharma): If under serious threat of island invasion, release gas to kill invaders
Widmore: Stop Ben from releasing gas or disable gas altogether

PROTOCOL TWO:
Ben (Dharma): If unable to stop invasion with gas, retreat to Orchid for further action
Widmore: If unable to capture Ben by surprise, intercept him at the Orchid


Now, why wouldn't Widmore have the mercs head straight for the Orchid to begin with? I think he is reluctant to release any more island info than absolutely necessary to his goons. Daniel, however, is on the island specifically to study the unique properties, including time travel, moving the island, etc, and so he WAS provided info about the Orchid beforehand. I think that although Widmore knew what the Orchid could do, he didn't know specifically how or why it worked, and part of his quest to reclaim the island includes gathering as much detailed scientific info as possible, ASAP.

I realise that I've got some speculative stuff in there, but it all sounds good to me.

i like this summary the best. i think we need to stop overanalyzing semantics again. it reminds me of last year, when there were pages upon pages of discussion over whether jack said that the person was "either" or "neither" friend or family. turns out, it doesn't effin' matter!

what i find most interesting is how you refer to it as a "game" between widmore and ben. ben said to widmore "you know i can't do that" in reference to killing him. so the island still has work for ben and widmore to do. why would the island keep widmore alive if he's the bad guy? why would it keep ben alive if he is really the bad guy? maybe the island has two facets.. a dark side and a light side. the light side is using ben as a conduit, and the dark side is using widmore. like how in Twin Peaks, there was a Black Lodge and a White Lodge. i think the idea of duality was also hinted at when we saw Christian in the cabin, but he wasn't wearing the suit and white shoes.

TK - I like the dam analogy....I was trying to get something like that out when I wrote my initial theory about how the Swan was constructed as a sort of "anchor" to keep the Island from moving at will

Gwen: I think Ms. Hawking needed the button not to be pushed when Desmond missed pushing the button, Flight 815 crashes on the island. I think Hawking wanted that outcome because a signal is given off that shows Widmore where the island is.

I think Widmore had the DI protocols and I thought Smokey was the first defense system, ergo the first protocol. Moving the island is second.

More evidence that Dharma never really left the island IMO.
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Perhaps EM is what powers the island.

Exactly. By knowing the protocols Ben will follow, Keamy can circumvent Ben. But, why didn't Ben already know to go to the Orchid (and move the island) without Locke consulting Jacob first? This is the thing I keep asking. How does Jacob know the protocols?

Jacob doesn't. Rather, they have named their protocols after the things that were said, as in "if Jacob says move the Island as a last resort, than it's a secondary protocol, because it's not our first thing to do" etc... And what surprises me is that Ben follows Dharma protocols after everything that happened... I sure am curious to find out why he would be doing that...

Jacob doesn't. Rather, they have named their protocols after the things that were said, as in "if Jacob says move the Island as a last resort, than it's a secondary protocol, because it's not our first thing to do" etc... And what surprises me is that Ben follows Dharma protocols after everything that happened... I sure am curious to find out why he would be doing that...
Well, we still have no idea about Jacob's origins... He obviously knew that the Orchid is the station that needs to be used in order to move the island. So if the secondary protocol is to move the island, he did know about it, as a protocol. He didn't say that to Locke because he wouldn't have understood. He just told him to go to the Orchid to move the island. Besides, it seems that he didn't really tell him HOW he was suppose to do such thing once he was inside the Orchid. Ben didn't tell him either....

So I think that 'moving' the island is gonna be as easy as pushing another button...

If it is indeed part of a protocol, everything must be already set up. You just flip a switch and the whole island moves to a pre-arranged place and time...
I wonder if the whole thing is gonna be password-protected like in the Looking glass, though...
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Gwen: I think Ms. Hawking needed the button not to be pushed when Desmond missed pushing the button, Flight 815 crashes on the island. I think Hawking wanted that outcome because a signal is given off that shows Widmore where the island is.

I think Widmore had the DI protocols and I thought Smokey was the first defense system, ergo the first protocol. Moving the island is second.

More evidence that Dharma never really left the island IMO.
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Perhaps EM is what powers the island.

I had forgotten about Smokie!!!!

The way I see it is that these protocols might be putting more emphasis in preventing people from getting ON the island, FIRST. Using the Orchid, as a secondary protocol, to move the whole island seems to confirm that idea. Like Hurley said it himself, if the bad guys are ALREADY on the island, they are gonna be moved together also! So what's the point? They have to resort to other ways to deal with it, like the modded Tempest or Smokie itself.

This is why I think The Swan might have been the first line of defense. Curiously, even if the Swan was not really designed to render the Island invisible, it might have been resulted as a side effect of playing around with the EM. Even Dharma might have gotten lucky! So they kept pushing the button...


Now, I don't know if any of you had already thought about it, but in this (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=96324)thread, I speculate that there might be even a Tertiary Protocol...

What does it say?

Think...

If the Island is SO powerful that it needs to be kept away from the 'wrong' guys at all costs...

What would be the last thing to do if the 'bad' guys had completely taken over the Island????

TO DESTROY THE ISLAND!!!

The Tertiary Protocol might end up being a self-destruction mechanism.... Probably used in the very last episode of the show.
If the Island itself is a 'character', what best way to end the show than killing the 'main' character of them all???
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A couple of more thoughts:

I can't help but finding lots of similarities between the way the Island's mechanisms are used to protect itself from invasion and the way that 'spaceships' are portraited in most sci fi shows and movies...

1) Use a 'cloaking device' to render the ship completely invisible and undetectable from radars.
2) Well, a spaceship can move, duh!;)

3) Use a self destruction mechanism as a last resort...

I'm not saying that the island IS a spaceship, but still....

Just for the record: The only previous reference to a 'protocol' I can think of was the Spider Protocol from the Lost Experience ARG, which was assumed to involve a genocidal mission in the interest of changing the Valenzetti Equation (the justification being that the deaths of a few thousand people would prevent the inevitable extinction of ALL human life).

- mnw

The Incident could also have been an experiment from The Orchid to see if moving the Island was possible. Dharma created a wormhole and was unable to shut it down due to the naturally occurring Casimir Effect. This caused the island to keep moving making it difficult for Dharma to locate the Island again. Pressing the button every 108 minutes discharged the electromagnetism required to open the Wormhole, so the Island would remain in the same spot. Ben needed Locke to stop pushing the button and so he could use the wormhole to leave the island.

But I could be crazy.....:insane:

Just for the record: The only previous reference to a 'protocol' I can think of was the Spider Protocol from the Lost Experience ARG, which was assumed to involve a genocidal mission in the interest of changing the Valenzetti Equation (the justification being that the deaths of a few thousand people would prevent the inevitable extinction of ALL human life).

- mnw
I think Candle called the button-pushing a 'protocol'...;)

Ben needed Locke to stop pushing the button and so he could use the wormhole to leave the island.

But I could be crazy.....:insane:


then he would have left way in the beginning of season 3. the Incident is most likely electromagnetic radiation causing "the sickness", as we saw with Minkowski and Desmond. the Swan was therefore built to contain and release the excess electromagnetic force on the island and try and prevent the sickness from happening again. Ben most likely wanted Locke to stop pushing the button so that it would implode and release the EMP to make the sky purple and shut down their communications with the outside world, because Ben secretly wanted to cut the Others off from the outside world and not ever let them leave the island. same reason why Ben wanted Locke to blow up the sub.

I feel sure that the incident, whatever it was, was tied to the Swan and the need for the button. Remember all that time ago when Sayid discovered they had poured concrete all over everything, like Chernobyl.

I feel sure that the incident, whatever it was, was tied to the Swan and the need for the button. Remember all that time ago when Sayid discovered they had poured concrete all over everything, like Chernobyl.

also, Dr. Marvin Candle said so in the orientation film.

also, Dr. Marvin Candle said so in the orientation film.

If you are saying he made a reference to 'Chernobil'.. No. He didn't.

Here's the whole video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EYJf5rZQgb0
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Now, as for what was behind the concrete wall....

Well, and I know it is been said that it is NOT canon, but those who played the videogame Lost Via Domus know what might be hidden there...

A REACTOR. Now the next part wasn't said on the game itself, it is only my idea... The Reactor was probably a TOKAMAK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokamak). Basically, the Swan was originally used to control the natural EM of that sector of the island in order to contain the fuel plasma inside the reactor within a very strong EM field. Preventing the plasma from touching the walls of the reactor...

And it makes LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of sense. Even if it's not canon....
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So this is one possible scenario:

The Incident obviously happened before it was necessary to push any button, right?
Because of some unexpected malfunction, human error, sabotage or whatever, there was a leak in the Swan (see spoiler for Lost Via Domus above). As a result, the whole island might have been 'blacked out' for some time...

Well, that doesn't seem like a big deal, right? It happens even to the big cities!!!
Sure, but most cities don't have stations like the Orchid....

I believe that at the time of the Island Blackout, there was an experiment going on at the Orchid. Think 'bunnies' but on a BIG scale...

So, because of this temporal lack of electricity, the experiment couldn't be finished in a safe way or in the way they were all expecting...
Perhaps they even couldn't STOP something from happening because all their systems were down...

What exactly happened? I don't know. I posted a possible theory at the beginning of this very thread: Island duplication...
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The Incident could also have been an experiment from The Orchid to see if moving the Island was possible. Dharma created a wormhole and was unable to shut it down due to the naturally occurring Casimir Effect. This caused the island to keep moving making it difficult for Dharma to locate the Island again. Pressing the button every 108 minutes discharged the electromagnetism required to open the Wormhole, so the Island would remain in the same spot. Ben needed Locke to stop pushing the button and so he could use the wormhole to leave the island.

But I could be crazy.....:insane:

What if they found out that it wasn't possible to 'move' (teleport might be the better term) things by themselves...
What if objects always leave like a 'temporal residue' of themselves...

This is the 'copy' that was suggested in the Orchid video.

This copy might have a 'shorter' lifetime. Perhaps they can only exist in the same 'dimension' for a certain time... After their time's up, they just 'disappear' or vanish into thin air?

Another scenario, could the copy island's lifetime be 108 minutes?

The Island was supposed to 'die' after 108 minutes. Pushing the button kept the copy island alive...

Fierro. You are awesome!! This is the first I have read about Tokamak!! I read the wiki and plan on looking into it some more. What a great find and theory!! Makes me second guess my theory of a PA... The science of it is particularly striking. Also, the Heavy Water would finally be explained. I have also just did a quick search to see if "magnetic confinement fusion" could cause a wormhole... and it can!!!

If the secondary protocol was an instruction for Keamy, such as Secondary Protocol: Torch the island, I don't think it would be under lock and key. I think the significance of it being under lock and key, and being read from a manual clearly marked with a Dharma logo, indicates that it was a protocol of Dharma's and only meant to be read as a need-to-know criteria. Keamy shouldn't have to be reading his own instructions from Dharma manual. It would be silly to open the safe and read, if step one fails, torch the island.

Fierro. You are awesome!! This is the first I have read about Tokamak!! I read the wiki and plan on looking into it some more. What a great find and theory!! Makes me second guess my theory of a PA... The science of it is particularly striking. Also, the Heavy Water would finally be explained. I have also just did a quick search to see if "magnetic confinement fusion" could cause a wormhole... and it can!!!
Thanks!
Do you think you can provide me the link with the relation between magnetic confinement reactors and wormholes?

Tokamak's torus-shaped magnetic containment field can create a gravitational singularity (or wormhole).

I found several. There is a new "tokamak" being built named ITER... here is a link
http://www.iter.org/

Some believe the nuclear fusion generated in this type of Magnetic Containment Field could cause a collapse thus a singularity ultimately creating a Black Hole that in theory is the opening of a wormhole.

First I googled Tokmak. Found information about ITER. ThenI Googled "Nuclear Fusion" and wormhole..... Many interesting theories...

Tokamak's torus-shaped magnetic containment field can create a gravitational singularity (or wormhole).

I found several. There is a new "tokamak" being built named ITER... here is a link
http://www.iter.org/

Some believe the nuclear fusion generated in this type of Magnetic Containment Field could cause a collapse thus a singularity ultimately creating a Black Hole that in theory is the opening of a wormhole.

First I googled Tokmak. Found information about ITER. ThenI Googled "Nuclear Fusion" and wormhole..... Many interesting theories...

Perhaps the Orchid's 'powers' came from the black hole created during the Incident? I mean they built the Orchid after the Swan, in order to 'play around' with this 'wormhole' that the Swan's incident gave birth to...

About the electrical power. Didn't Ben tell Locke they had a giant hamster wheel underground (presumably with giant hamsters running in it)? After all there's a painting of a woman holding a hamster on the wall in Ben's house. ;)