Did anyone feel sorry for ben while he was turning the "frozen donkey wheel"?

the look of anguish on his face...that was a moment of real sacrifice for him. i know that seconds earlier he had shrugged at the idea of killing 50 people needlessly, but he really did take the punishment there and leave the island for the sake of everyone else.

any thoughts?

I did feel bad for him for a second but he always has a back up plan. I think getting the O6 + Locke back to the island will get him an invitation back. What was it he said? "i hope youre happy, jacob" ? Like he knew he wouldnt be happy with his decision to put locke in char

i genuinely felt sorry for him.

the island was his life, it was all he knew.

he had no problem killing anyone else off to save the island, but at least you could tell it hurt him to have to give it all up for it's well being.

I liked the scene, and I felt sorry for Ben. But Ben always has a plan, so it's hard to feel that sorry for him. That and he lies a lot, so I'm not sure I believe him when he says he cannot return to the island.

I did. Honestly, I'm still processing the episode, so I'm probably not going to be all that articulate but…I felt sorry for him a few times during this episode(s). When Locke pulled him off of Keamy, for example. The normally always-in-control Ben was completely out of control when he killed Keamy. Kind of nice to see the master manipulator is human after all.

I also felt sympathy for him as he was saying goodbye to Locke. I felt his whole "I'm sorry I made your life miserable" speech was poignant and sincere.

And one thing I learned about Ben from this episode: He may be manipulative as hell, and have a will of steel, but he isn't one to let his own ego eclipse the big picture. He wasn't happy about seceding his "chosen one" status to Locke, but he didn't really fight it, either. He seemed to accept the "changing of the guard," even asking Jacob, "Are you happy now?"

Uhhhh absolutely not, because just when he was becoming a human being in my eyes again, he had absolutely no problem with killing anyone on the ship for his petty vengeance. And you feel sorry for HIM??

Did I feel sorry for Ben? Wow, that is a toughie and, like Pomba Gira, I'm still processing the episode. I can't wait for the DVDs to come out so that I can watch it several more times. When he said "So?", it was kind of impossible to feel sorry for him, but then again, for once, I don't think Ben was acting rationally when he killed Keamy, he was avenging Alex, so in a twisted way that humanizes him a bit because he really loved Alex to the point that his emotion actually eclipsed his rational side in that one moment. ...Then again (*LOL*, there are always about 108 ways to look at something on LOST), it could have been purely or partially selfish because Keamy was a problem and had to be neutralized in Ben's view. Why should Ben care about all the people on the freighter (again, sticking with how his mind works!)? He didn't care when he gassed all the members of the Dharma Initiative...or he didn't care enough not to do it.

So, did I feel sorry for Ben? Well, I always feel sorry for him in the sense of we have seen a glimpse into his loveless childhood in which he lived with constant rejection and blame from his father over his mother's death. I always go back to that birthday scene, that awful birthday scene, wherein Ben's father said such cruel things to him that made it clear in no uncertain terms that, in daddio's mind and heart, Ben killed his mother. HOW AWFUL. It's amazing that Ben is functional at all. But he compensated for the utter lack of love by becoming super-functional. Uber functional. "I always have a plan."

So, yes, in many ways I do feel sorry for the potential Ben who was CRUSHED by the father from h*ll. I always see glimpses of him inside the actual Ben who does such awful things sometimes. But that doesn't mean I don't hold him responsible for the awful things he does. It just means that I do see him as a tragic figure and I do feel for the guy...even though the guy seems incapable of feeling for anyone else...except Alex.*

* edited to add: And, curiously, strangely and touchingly, he seemed to genuinely feel sorry for how he had treated Locke when he said goodbye to him and apologized for everything he had put Locke through. I really felt like he meant that. It was interesting.

Ben has been one of my favorites since the Henry Gale incident, and I definitely felt sorry for him at the end of the ep. Facing his daughter's killer obviously made him very emotional, resulting in one of his first bad decisions, and I think we can't hold his paternal instinct against him at all. I think watching him turn the wheel, knowing what he's leaving behind, it's all kind of tragic. He basically sacrificed everything for the Island, and it's all for naught since he can't return.

Is Ben still hot for Juliette?

Yes, I felt bad for him. He accepted the fact that Jacob wanted him off of the island and did what he had to do. Other than the death of Alex, this was the only time he has looked defeated.

Any time I start to feel sorry for Ben or like him I remind myself Ben is a mass murderer. If you count blowing up the boat, he's twice a mass murderer. Bravo to the acting performance that makes Ben so multifaceted.

And one thing I learned about Ben from this episode: He may be manipulative as hell, and have a will of steel, but he isn't one to let his own ego eclipse the big picture. He wasn't happy about seceding his "chosen one" status to Locke, but he didn't really fight it, either. He seemed to accept the "changing of the guard," even asking Jacob, "Are you happy now?"

Absolutely. Despite Ben's personal history, I felt a smidge of admiration for him. This is his redemption moment. Finally.

Is Ben still hot for Juliette?

i don't know, but i am.... lol

ben said it himself, he has a problem not letting his emotions get in the way. Ben is a particularly dangerous man, because he will kill some one cold heartedly for the sake of a plan, but he will also let his obsession and rage get in the way too.

I love the character, but i don't feel that bad for him, cause alot of his problems come from his own abuse of power.

i felt sorry for michael emerson having to participate in one of the most ridiculous scenes in lost history. he's ridiculously talented, and was trying to hard to make it believable, but come on. frozen donkey wheel moves the island?

Did anyone feel sorry for ben while he was turning the "frozen donkey wheel"?

the look of anguish on his face...that was a moment of real sacrifice for him. i know that seconds earlier he had shrugged at the idea of killing 50 people needlessly, but he really did take the punishment there and leave the island for the sake of everyone else.

any thoughts?
No, I didn't feel sorry for Ben, and I said that to myself as he was down there feeling sorry for himself at the donkey wheel. As you said, seconds earlier he had taken action that knowingly killed all the people on the freighter, just for revenge of getting back at Keamy (and that wouldn't bring Alex back). And of course that's just one in a long line of killing/letting other people die.

Ben did not blow up the boat, Keamy did. I dont think Ben was thinking about the freighter as he was stabbing Keamy and screaming " you killed my daughter"

the look of anguish on his face...that was a moment of real sacrifice for him.

Thats what I really took out of that scene. I know a lot of people have expressed that the "frozen donkey wheel" actually being a frozen donkey wheel was dumb, but that was a phenomenal bit of acting by Michael Emerson.

Like you said, absolute anguish on his face.

Did I feel sorry for Ben in Old Wheelerton?

No.

Yes, I felt sorry for Ben. I agree that his apparent anguish as he turned the wheel was moving.

As far as Ben and his various murderings, I still don't feel like Ben is completely evil. In my mind, he may be working towards the greater good. Those people were "sacrifices that the Island demanded." We still don't know what the Island really is or it's significance to the rest of the world. After all, Ms. Hawking seemed to say that Desmond had to go to the Island, push the button, whatever or everyone would be gone (? Something like that). The equation, the core values, etc....hasn't it been implied that some major catastrophe is on it's way and the Island plays a part? Sorry for rambling.

What I mean to say, maybe, is that everyone Ben has killed or allowed to die so far may be a necessary evil, in the same way that so many had to die in order to take down the Nazi war machine. I don't know if this makes sense.

Personally, I felt for ben a few times this episode. I think that when he apologized to Locke for making his life miserable, it may have been one of the most sincere things he's ever said. As far as turning the wheel, while many can debate over if the scene was cheesy or believable, i think theres not much debate over the fact that Emerson did the best job he could with the scene. It made me feel for him, giving up this island that he's been with forever, and cared so much for.

I know that a lot of people are saying that they don't feel bad considering minutes before, he had just blown up the freighter by killing Keamy. Understandable, but (god forbid) let someone kill your loved one, and see how much control and restraint you have if you ever got your hands on the person who did it. I'd have stabbed him too, most likely. I just don't think that the freighter and the people on it were the first thing on his mind-the man murdered his daughter.

All that being said, I don't know that Ben can never go back to the island. . .he always has a plan.

Yes, I felt bad for him whille he was turning that wheel, he really will sacrifice everything for that island. Plus the music is so dramatic, I can't help it. :biggrin:

:heartben:

I did not feel sorry for Ben as he was turning that donkey wheel.
The pained look on his face didn't exactly strike me as him feeling like he was making such a big sacrifice. To be honest, I interpreted it to mean, "Man, where's a good strong polar bear when you need one? This sucker's really hard to turn and it's really cold!"

I really felt sorry for Ben, and that acting was absolutely fantastic. Micheal Emerson is by far the best actor in Lost IMHO and I was so relieved it was not him in the coffin at the end!:biggrin:

I really did feel sorry for Ben. Ever since Alex was murdered. The island is everything to him is. It is his mother and father. I think for a few brief moments Ben put down his guard and was genuine. There is no question in my mind Ben will find a way back to the island, his home.

Nope not at all. For a split second I thought he had an actuall heart beating inside his chest and then he made the remark about the freighter blowing up. I knew, I was wrong. Nothing more then a chunk of ice in there.

Any time I start to feel sorry for Ben or like him I remind myself Ben is a mass murderer. If you count blowing up the boat, he's twice a mass murderer. Bravo to the acting performance that makes Ben so multifaceted.

And he stole a baby from her mother. Hard to feel sorry for that guy.

On some level I felt very sorry for him turning the wheel when he knew he could never return to his beloved island. Overall it is hard for me to feel sorry for him. I implicate him partially in Alex's death. What is so amazing about the island that it has first place in his heart, I wonder. I felt bad that he had to leave it, but it bothers me that he seems to worship it so much, at the expense of the lives of many human beings. I mean... it is a sacrifice, but what is that sacrifice worth? It must be something more than saving human lives because Ben doesn't seem to value those very much in my opinion.

You bet I felt sorry for Ben.

When he uttered what is already the infamous "So?" I near panicked. For a moment the world slew accelerating away. I felt dizzy and sick, but not with disgust - I don't know about the rest of you but;

When a child murdered for cash taunts me with his human shield and demands I accede to his will...

He can go frick himself.

I don't deal with terrorists.

(I also understand that sometimes some civilian losses are deemed acceptable when you knock out an enemy's heavy water production plant during bombing and sabotage raids)

My panic was born of the realisation that Ben, leader, chess master and man with a plan, had totally lost the plot. That was more scary to me than his supposed callousness.

(nice mirroring of Jack's disregard for the safety of his fellow air passengers on his wish-it-crashes flight btw).

Bit surprised the dead man's trigger couldn't be circumvented or tricked in some way. Ben and John had viable pulses... I'd have given it a go. But I'm daft so. :biggrin:

Don't got a problem at all with the icy sub chamber. How many times can you hear 'Kelvin' and 'absolutely' and not have your mind turned to Absolute Zero and quantum mechanics?

i love how certain people give ben no leeway at all for his actions, but those same people will give keamy leeway for his simply because michael emerson isnt steryotypically hot and the guy who played keamy is big and buff. hehe. (and no im not baiting anyone here) i just find that funny and a double standard. personally if u have to take a murderer, I'd take a murderer who kills for what he believes is the right thing over a murderer for hire anyday of the week all hours including sundays on a leap year.

to me it seemed that "SO?" from ben wasn't really out of disregard for the peoples lives. to me that was a sign it was easier for him to act like it wasnt a big deal than to actually accept that he completly lost it and people died because of that. sometimes when u have soemthing on your mind you deem "bigger" (wehter or not the bigger is acceptable is subject to opinion, many people think ludicrous wars that risk way more people's lives than ben ever did as a good enough reason to forego human civilities) its important to not get hung up on the emotional trauma of what you did until after everything is done.

i love how certain people give ben no leeway at all for his actions, but those same people will give keamy leeway for his simply because michael emerson isnt steryotypically hot and the guy who played keamy is big and buff. hehe. (and no im not baiting anyone here) i just find that funny and a double standard. personally if u have to take a murderer, I'd take a murderer who kills for what he believes is the right thing over a murderer for hire anyday of the week all hours including sundays on a leap year.

to me it seemed that "SO?" from ben wasn't really out of disregard for the peoples lives. to me that was a sign it was easier for him to act like it wasnt a big deal than to actually accept that he completly lost it and people died because of that. sometimes when u have soemthing on your mind you deem "bigger" (wehter or not the bigger is acceptable is subject to opinion, many people think ludicrous wars that risk way more people's lives than ben ever did as a good enough reason to forego human civilities) its important to not get hung up on the emotional trauma of what you did until after everything is done.

firstly, i don't think anyone thinks that keamy is anything other than an evil bas tard.

but i seriously can't believe how anyone can feel even remotely sorry for ben. he's a mass murderer. a kidnapper. and terrorised all the losties for no apparent reason. and why do people feel sorry for him because his daughter got killed? it was him who refused to give himself up in exchange, and his last words were that she meant nothing to him. surely that makes you hate him more? and what about the families of all the dharma initiative? and why do people actually feel sorry for him? because he had to leave the island, because he lost his place as leader of the other? it's not that bad, at least he's still alive. anyone who really feels sorry for ben is a bit stupid in my opinion.

Absolutely.Ben has been on the island nearly his whole entire life, and to leave it must be really hard for him.

I feel sorry for him but I think he can come back to the island. He could have used that lie to stop Locke going with him as he knows Locke wouldn't leave the island if he couldn't come back.

I liked the scene, and I felt sorry for Ben. But Ben always has a plan, so it's hard to feel that sorry for him. That and he lies a lot, so I'm not sure I believe him when he says he cannot return to the island.

If Ben cannot go back to the island how come he is including himself in the "we" to Jack as regards Locke/Bentham's body and the Oceanic 6 returning to the island. I agree-Ben lies quite a lot and I never take anything he says seriously as gospel truth